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My Darkside experience

10K views 91 replies 28 participants last post by  Chicago-Spike 
#1 ·
Love my 2003 VTX 1800S.
I purchased a cheap car tire just to test the waters and have been very pleased with the performance of this cheap effective tire. It is a Antares Ingens A1 All-Season Tire - 195/65R15 91H
I have put 8,000 hard, rubber smoking miles on the tire; no joke, I have been beating on this tire at almost every launch. It is still very close to new tread level and handles great. I run it at 42psi and it only took 60psi to seat it. Yes the rims are spoke and I used a silicone designed for metal to seal the spokes; zero issues or leaks. Just wanted to share this with those who are interested.
Seriously did not expect this out of a 42 dollar car tire. The only thing I noticed different is if you go into a low lean turn like rounding a 45 almost dragging peg, it is best not to give it heavy gas in the middle. Not unstable just an odd feeling and to be honest this is not something people do in general anyway; I just tend to push things when testing. You may also need to fight uneven roads a little harder but it is well worth it.
 
#2 ·
Thanks for sharing. Quite the controversial subject for a first post.

For those of us who have tried it yours is another testimony to what we have found to be true ourselves. To others a reply like yours might be yet another assault on their own sensibilities.



Prepare yourself of all replies.



Welcome to the Board. Ride safe!
 
#3 ·
I’m not preaching the DS....lot of folks cant wrap their head around the concept...I have 50k on my 06 1300 r and most of that is DS....for me early on the trick was to let the bike do its thing and not try and over correct....if u can learn to enjoy the quirks ..its a fun ride....stay safe and good luck..
 
#4 ·
You say you have an 1800S did you get different wheels or are you running an inner tube inside of that Car tire. I've been out of the loop for a while but was around when the the darkside started taking off pretty hevey through the VTX community several years ago. You would be the 1st person I ever saw going dark side on a spoked wheel. I thought it was something that could only be done on solid wheels (Spokeless). Which is the reason I never gave it a try.
 
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#5 ·
No Thanks. I hate these spoked wheels with a passion. The 1st chance I find a set of wheels C or R wheels that I can afford I'm snatching them up.
 
#8 · (Edited)
This topic is as old and beaten and controversial as what oil to use. LOL

Lest this thread turn into a DS-only love fest (and we cant allow that...LOL) I thought I'd chime in.

I am one of the most frugal SOBs around.....and I give props to the guys who have taken this leap of faith on their own engineering theories and stcuk with the DS on principle of saving cash....but this is one area I will continue to succumb to the professional engineer guidelines. Been riding for 20 years and to be honest every time I buy tires I consider the DS.....thinking about how I could use the extra money saved for anything but tires.......and so far every time I have passed.

I found this article below interesting..... as it says in the article, many folks also ride for years without a helmet and without incident...until the day something changes that. Seems like most DSers make the comment "It is a little different, but once your get used to it...." or something to that effect. Which makes me wonder --- just because you get used to something, is it safe?

http://ridermagazine.com/2016/05/20/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles/
 
#9 ·
This topic is as old and beaten and controversial as what oil to use. LOL

Lest this thread turn into a DS-only love fest (and we cant allow that...LOL) I thought I'd chime in.

I am one of the most frugal SOBs around.....and I give props to the guys who have taken this leap of faith on their own engineering theories and stcuk with the DS on principle of saving cash....but this is one area I will continue to succumb to the professional engineer guidelines. Been riding for 20 years and to be honest every time I buy tires I consider the DS.....thinking about how I could use the extra money saved for anything but tires.......and so far every time I have passed.

I found this article below interesting..... as it says in the article, many folks also ride for years without a helmet and without incident...until the day something changes that. Seems like most DSers make the comment "It is a little different, but once your get used to it...." or something to that effect. Which makes me wonder --- just because you get used to something, is it safe?

http://ridermagazine.com/2016/05/20/tales-from-the-dark-side-putting-car-tires-on-motorcycles/

In a word, no. But it is not the act of riding on a CT that makes it safe, regardless of how many times it is done. It is the fact that CTs have carried riders for millions of miles collectively without any known failures that could be attributed to a failure of the tire brought about simply be running it on a motorcycle rather than the corner of an automobile. If you doubt the claim of millions of miles remember that car tires have been used on motorcycles for decades by untold numbers of riders. Car tires have failed due to road hazards but that is not a true factor in whether they are safe in this application or not because MT also have failures for this reason.
So at the end of the day, it is empirical evidence that proves that using a CT on a motorcycle is not only safe, but also economical, engineers' thoughts aside. The "best" minds on earth long held the belief that the earth was flat. But facts trump theory. It's as simple as that.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Aw, now you had to go and stir up the Flat-Earthers!! DANG!!:surprise:
I put a car tire on the back of my 1800S (used an inner tube) almost 6yrs ago, and have gone thru 3 front tires before I got 1/2way thru the tread on the P205 6015 on the back; so there's that.


As for safety; I teach MSF course, so I'm well-versed in the safety aspects, rules, and risk assessment. The biggest safety PLUS I can think of on a VTX1800 is this: (Note, may not apply to all riders) When you speed-shift into 2nd WOT, the back end stays straight and true. When I tried that with stock motorcycle tire, the ass end would kick out to the side. A good friend (experienced rider) wanted to swap bikes, try the mighty 110ci. When he achieved the same results mentioned above, he let off, I caught up, and he said: :shock: "What the Hell was THAT!?!"

I haven't been able to convince him to try it again, since the car tire...>:)


Now, I will have to say, in deference to MC tires, sideloads, traction in turns, etc.; I would not run one on a crotch-rocket that is used for canyon-carving or road course. The contact patch at extreme lean angles will be better with MC tire in that case. The car tire works on a big cruiser/full dress long hauler so well because the floorboards scrape long before the tire reaches max lean angle.
And finally; what tires do they use on drag bikes?!?!
-Just sayin'...
 
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#14 · (Edited)
#15 ·
Many good points Shadango. Again, from my perspective, on a big couch like mine, probably no big deal either way. Application makes a difference in this case.

Your point about insurance is bang on though. I will say this, and I'm praying I will never have to play this out. BUT, if me or mine were ever injured in any way by a motorcycle and that bike had a car tire on it, you need to know that my lawyer would also know about that. Similarly, it would surprise me to learn that any insurance company would not at least question a claim based on that.

Like you, I really don't concern myself with who wears what when they are riding. I have said many times I am not an All The Gear All The Time person. Most of the time I ride with sneakers, jeans, T-shirt, vest, helmet and shades. That then speaks to my safety and not the safety of those around me. Just as I would not ride with questionable brakes or even questionable tires, I simply can't bring myself to try DS. Those that choose to do so, all the power to you. I envy the cost savings on rubber. Just like I will not eat liver, I will not run a CT on my bike.
 
#16 ·
Just to add my .02c my 04 1800 had stock tires on it, now my 07 1800 has a 120.70.21 front tire and a 240.40.18 rear tire. The learning curve to ride was short but
necessary all the same. Uneven roads, turns, cornering are all different comparing my two bikes to each other. Like posted earlier, takes some getting used to. Which ever tire you run DS or MT ride safe and enjoy
 
#25 ·
Just to qualify my post in this thread, even after rereading this thread several times it seems to me that we are talking about the difference between riding on differing tires on our bikes. Likes, dislikes, safety, CT vs MT, engineering, whatever. I threw my .02c in here because the two VTX's I've owned they have totally different tires and wheels. Sorry, I'm confused or don't completely understand. What I do know, my 04 had 130.70.18 front tire and wheel with a 170.70.16 rear tire and wheel on it. My 07 has a 120.70.21 front tire and wheel with a 240.40.18 tire and wheel on it. In comparison, my 07 has a 3" taller and narrower front and a 2" taller and wider rear. All this put together makes this bike have a totally different handling characteristic than my previous one. The same can be said from going to a CT on your bike. OK, back to the regular program, I'll try not to interrupt again. Signing out, Captain Obvious.:smile2:
 
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#27 ·
The Darkside ,if u havent tried it ,then all u got is an opinion.....to each his own...
Clever catch phrase I guess....LOL....but so many things wrong with it....and since it seems to be as call-out to those of us who are not "for" the DS having never tried it, I guess I feel the need to blabber some more.:wink2:

True, I have never tried the "Dark Side".

I have also never tried Russian roulette either but its not just opinion that if I keep spinning the barrel and pulling the trigger I will eventually take a round in the skull.

I have never tried robbing a bank even though many have gotten away with it.

I have never tried LSD but I know it has been said that it can be an amazing trip ....but it can also cause my death.

I have never ...well you get what I am saying.

TRYING something and not having an immediate negative feedback is not proof that a negative consequence isn't waiting around the corner or that it is sound science.

There is opinion - agreed -- OPINION is "I like the way my bike handles with a car tire" or "I like saving money on a car tire rather than a bike tire"

But then there are facts.....and the fact is that a bike tire and rim are different - bead-wise - from a car tire and wheel. Plenty of engineering fact out there to illustrate why its a bad idea to tempt fate this way, some shown below.

Hey, if it works for ya, go for it. As I said, we are all big boys and can decide for ourselves.

But the way I see it, when I am hurtling down the road at 80 mph with nothing between me and the asphalt flying by than the two tire patches on the road, I prefer to err on the side of caution and not tempt fate by saying "them engineers don't know jack!" LOL

True that bike tires can fail. But so can car tires when mounted on car wheels. And that's when the beads match up as designed.

To up the ante and tempt fate by saying "if the bead seats well enough to hold air, it's enough!" just scares the dickens out of me...... especially at highway speeds.

We already have so many things/people out there waiting to knock us off our rides, why build in more possible (I said POSSIBLE, not definite) risk?





Motorcycle tire


Car tire on a motorcycle rim


Comparing a cutaway of a bike rim to a car rim...note the differences in where the bead sits
 
#30 ·
I would assume that by data you mean some sort of study or statistics to show that a car tire "causes" bike crashes.

Wont find that because frankly the number of people doing the DS still appears to be a relatively small percentage of riders in general. No official data one way or the other aside from scores of tire engineers saying "don't do it" and DSers saying "it works for me".

Lots of examples of that scenario in the world for many other things.

Until there is an official study, ANY data, Pro-DS or Anti-DS is anecdotal and subjective except for things like the bead issue, which is simple mechanical engineering fact. There IS a higher risk of the bead popping.

But we all do what we need to do.....despite being taught "ATGATT" 20 years ago, I usually now just wear a half helmet, fingerless gloves, boots and shades, knowing full well that the anecdotal "data" out there says these choices are risky and could cost me.

But for 20 years of riding I have been fine. Crossing my fingers it stays that way.

No worries....we all have to do what we feel works for us.

I am off to ride later too if I can break away from work.....gonna put on my half helmet and ride with my BIKE tire and enjoy having my knees in the breeze.

Ride on and stay safe.
 
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#29 ·
I respect Shadango's part in this debate, I just don't happen to agree with it. Now where was that discussion of Dino oil -vs- synthetic?
 
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#34 ·
LOL...OK, thanks. But FYI, not everything is a pissing battle,.,...I was just discussing a topic, offering my thoughts.

Thought that was the idea of a forum....to DISCUSS. I could be wrong. :wink2:
 
#33 ·
My 18 had sdarkside mounted when I bought it . Owner was very proud of it and wouldn't shut his trap about it as though it made him "special"

I rode it for a bit, it sucked. Weird handling, slow response.

Contact is not larger than a MC tire, it's just shaped different.

Braking, well if you're using mostly rear brake you're doing it wrong.

Higher load rating, well maybe mounted on a correct width car rim,on a bike rim, who knows.

Nice first post, Darksiders forum must want to stir up some crap.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I RARELY engage in these contentious debates since its like telling someone their baby is ugly and out come the daggers... that said, I completely respect folks' opinion on these MC related topics where their experience exceeds mine and I have to ask this for my own information: If I am not concerned with the cost savings, what other compelling reason is there for me to consider the darkside option. As I read the opinions one way and the other, it seems to me that if cost was removed from the equation there isn't any reason for me to switch. Do I have it right?

Note that I ask this in all sincerity, as I'm just trying to understand this issue better.
 
#43 ·
it seems to me that if cost was removed from the equation there isn't any reason for me to switch. Do I have it right?

Note that I ask this in all sincerity, as I'm just trying to understand this issue better.
Yeah, pretty much. It also tends to attract the attention whores, like the "wearing shorts in the winter guy" They just want to be different even if it is a dumb idea.
 
#36 ·
Well, the contact patch is bigger. It has better stopping ability, in dry and especially in the wet. And even though price is not something you're concerned with, some people will run their MT longer than they really should in order to get as much mileage as they can out of their very expensive investment. Or because when it wears thin they don't have the funds to plunk down for another $300 tire change (w/labor). With a CT it takes a long, long time to get to that point where the tread is mostly gone.
The talk about it feeling different, or weird as compared to a MT are overblown. As has been noted in this thread different bikes handle and feel differently, and even the same bike with different setups on them, ala jbrittjr's feel different even when both setups are comprised of MTs. You get used to whatever you run, to the point that it feels natural and behaves in a consistent manner, ie as expected, no matter what you run.
So, in a nutshell I think the compelling reasons are that they are safe. And long-lasting.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Well, the contact patch is bigger. It has better stopping ability, in dry and especially in the wet.
But....Contact patch is not the key deciding factor with traction or braking capacity per basic physics equations.

Weight of the tire does.

A wider tire is a heavier tire.

F=µN........ F=traction, µ=grip and N=force applied

Check the highly technobabble post on this page....read about the brick and a string experiment that proves this formula.

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15560

The talk about it feeling different, or weird as compared to a MT are overblown.
Overblown or not, it seems to be pretty much a given every time a new person tries the DS, they mention how it handles different.

I have tried about 6 different brand tires on my VTX1800 and VTX1300 bikes....

NONE of them made it handle "like when the center has worn flat on a MC tire...a little touchy to leaning" as more than a few DSers have described it.

JohnnieP, let's just call it what it is....

In the face of engineers everywhere saying "don't do it and here is why", and in the face of actual proven physics laws and formulae , and in the face of actual images of how incompatible car tire beads and MC tire beads are, some folks are Ok with "it worked for me" as validation of their decision to try it themselves....to save money.

THATS FINE. More power to ya. I wont ever stand in the way of someone else making a decision in regards to their own safety or money. except maybe my wife or sons. :wink2:

But no one should get on any forum and say "Running a car tire on a MC is fine because I never had a problem!"......more importantly, no one should take that sort of subjective "evidence" as proof of anything. Even trying it for yourself and "having no issues" isn't a true validation, regardless of the machismo invloved in "running the darkside" and "living dangerously"....LOL.

Lots of people get by doing lots of things every day...things that are known to be not the best idea. If only one person in a 100 experiences a problem, it's not a big deal at all...unless you are that person.

I asked the same exact questions as you years ago on this, and got the same answers then.

As I have said, I am a FRUGAL guy and love to save money. I clip coupons when I can, I use credit cards that give me 2% back, and I commute to work on the bike so I can save money, even in the rain and coldest days when I get the stink eye from passing cagers as if they are saying "are you insane". I reuse zip lock sandwich bags, take my breakfast and lunch to work every day and often eat food that is past the "best by" date....just to save nickels here and there. LOL

Yet I have not been able to overlook the scores of engineers and the actual scientific reason that weighs heavily on the side of saying that using a car tire on a MC is not a good idea. So I continue to pay $350-400 for a set of tires plus $100 to install them once every 9 months or so....it's worth it to me having the peace of mind knowing that I am not tempting fate. I already do that enough on other stuff.

Now, I am off to have a ham sandwich....that bread only has a LITTLE green mold on it...I'll just cut that part off. LOL
 
#37 ·
Thanks for that vtox, I appreciate your thoughts and good points. I think the long-lasting part doesn't apply to me since I don't have the chance to ride enough miles to worry about a tire change every year so cost isn't too high on the list of concerns for me. Re. the safety part, my 1300 doesnt have the power, nor do I have the skill, to "light 'em up" and I haven't had an issue with sliding the rear while stopping even in the rain (that said, I did when I started riding this bike but that's experience building, and it doesn't take into account any emergency situations...!). So from that perspective I don't think darkside is for me. As I said earlier, I say this from my perspective... it may be just the thing for someone else!

Thanks again.
 
#38 ·
Cars tires sucketh wingy wangy wonkie worms. Handle like **** and are ugly as women with hairy underarms. I understand the savings and mileage. I dont understand trying to sell it as something special or as an upgrade. JMO
 
#41 · (Edited)
Vtox - I highly respect you and your opinions. However, nearly every quote and example you gave in that last post was for things that were cutting edge and pushing forward in advancements.
In the case of car tires on bikes, that's hardly cutting edge and not an advancement.
People have been putting car tires on their bikes for more than 50 years. When I first made a comment of disbelief, my grand dad corrected me and said "I used to run car tires way back in the 60s. It works just fine."
Advancements, engineering, scientific studies have all pushed further development in rubber compounds and all sorts of things for motorcycle tires. But it hasn't brought about hard cheap flat tread that an inexpensive car tire provides. Looking at motorcycle racing, you don't see anything similar to car tires. I'm positive it would get you black flagged.
So, the last fifty years of tire advances have brought us more defined rounded profiles for motorcycle tires, not flat car tire style profiles. The majority of improvements have been rubber compounds and composition of the tire itself. The better traction and stopping power is not decided by simple "contact patch size."
Some say motorcycle tires are purposely designed to wear out fast so that the tire companies make more money. This is asinine because of the marketing and push towards higher mileage tires for bikes and cars. It's a selling point if the tires last longer.
 
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#42 ·
I was DS for several years and do miss the wet surface traction, the rear braking power, and straight smokey launches from the CT. I now run another unorthodox tire, a 230/15 on an 1800 sealed spoke wheel on my 1300. I will say the 230 MC tire does handle better on some of the funky surfaces I regularly have to ride, but I do miss my wet road traction and burnouts. With the CT I did not care how much I smoked that tire since it never wore down. With this much more expensive and softer 230 MC tire I can not abuse it as much, and in the rain it totally sucks compared to the CT, but does look a lot better on the bike.
 
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