Question on Neutral Safety switch - VTXOA
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-08-2014, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Question Question on Neutral Safety switch

Posted this on the cafe, but figure some of you may not go there and have a good thought for me so I reposted here as well.
Ok, background first..
Changed out my stock levers last year, wouldn't start in gear with clutch pulled in.. pulled the lever and installed new bushing, cleaned contacts on switch etc. Started up in gear etc etc. Worked fine until last week... started to give me a hard time starting for a few days.. slow to respond, then had to hit the start button a couple times etc, but would start in gear ( kick stand up at all attempts by the way) Scoot is an 07 1300C with 25k on it..
My question is there a definitive way to "test" the switch, instead of just throwing parts at it, or is there something else that could cause this symptom and I should look there before replacing the switch?
Any thoughts are welcome..

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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 12:45 AM
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Ohm meter to test the continuity thru the sw. Or a volt meter to check for voltage on both sides of the switch when you hit the start button.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cavie View Post
Ohm meter to test the continuity thru the sw. Or a volt meter to check for voltage on both sides of the switch when you hit the start button.
Wasn't sure if it was a ground trigger or not..and with the way my luck has gone this week. I was concerned if I put a probe on it, something would melt and let all the magic smoke out

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken View Post
.. slow to respond, then had to hit the start button a couple times etc,..
My question is there a definitive way to "test" the switch, instead of just throwing parts at it, or is there something else that could cause this symptom and I should look there before replacing the switch?
By your description I'm not sure if the engine is turning slowly or simply nothing at all happens when you push the button. But almost always these problems come back to a dirty or burned start switch (can be cleaned) or a weak battery.

Doubt it is a neutral switch but the easiest way to test it is to look at the neutral light. If the light is responding perfectly then it isn't a bad neutral switch. But regarding checking the actual switch it is a single wire switch, when in neutral it connects ground from the engine case back to the control module and the neutral light. So a simple check directly at the switch is to disconnect the single wire and check continuity between the engine case and the switch connector. You will read ground/have continuity when in neutral, not in neutral it will be an open.

And to check the wiring from the switch back to the bike simply ground the disconnected wire, neutral light should come on.
This is a pic of doing the exact same thing but with the temp switch, works the same way as the neutral switch.


If you want a reasonable confirmation that it is the start switch this video will show you how and it will also get you going again if the start switch dies when you are out somewhere, a simple way of bypassing the start switch. If the start switch is bad you won't be getting a click at the starter relay. MAKE SURE THE BIKE IS PHYSICALLY IN NEUTRAL!

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 02:21 AM
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What is it actually doing , first you say the neutral switch then you said clutch switch then starter button.
Is it just not starting in gear with the kickstand up.
Clutch switch , you can unplug it remove the lever and just pop the clutch switch threw the housing then while working the plunger on the switch spray WD40 threw the two side holes and black junk will pour out then you can check t
He plug with an ohm meter, tey just don't go bad just get dirty.
What kind of levers did you insall. On one brand you have to file/gring the area where the switch pin hits the lever just a little.

Doug

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry guys, in my mind I thought I was being descriptive and helpful...

Last few days I would hit the starter switch and it would attempt to start, starter motor would do half a revolution... then stop...
I'd jab the button again and it would fire right up like normal..
Then it got to the point that unless I was in neutral ( green indicator lamp works so I can tell it's in neutral etc etc as well as rocking the bike while seated) there was NO response from the starter switch... once in neutral it will and does start instantly..
On a couple of occasions I get a slight (tug) from the bike like the clutch is engaged (but I have the clutch lever completely pulled in) but only oh so slightly and it's very random..
When I installed my aftermarket levers it did something similar but the effect was immediate... Donut told me to check the levers and make sure they were centered etc and clean the switch..
I followed his instructions last year ( new bushings to center the levers, shimmed them so they were snug in the housings etc cleaned the switch at the clutch lever ) and it has worked flawlessly since...
The slow deterioration of the start function over the last week has made me wonder if one of the switches? ( my mind went to neutral safety immediately, dunno why)
I pulled both contacts off the switch just to confirm they were making contact, hit em with electric parts cleaner and re-installed... No effect.
Hopefully that helps.
I can't tell ya the name brand of the levers. They are chromed aluminum levers that look like flames to match the flamed mirrors I put on...
NO Idea who makes em.. but they have worked fine for the last 13k miles since I centered and shimmed them..

Just for the process of elimination, I'll pop the lever out when I get home this morning, pull and clean the clutch switch, pull the right side clamshell and clean the start switch as well.. I KNOW my battery terminals are tight.. I just redid my wiring and after I was done I tightened the battery bolts with a torque wrench to 20 ftlbs..

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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken View Post
Sorry guys, in my mind I thought I was being descriptive and helpful...

Last few days I would hit the starter switch and it would attempt to start, starter motor would do half a revolution... then stop...
I'd jab the button again and it would fire right up like normal..
Then it got to the point that unless I was in neutral ( green indicator lamp works so I can tell it's in neutral etc etc as well as rocking the bike while seated) there was NO response from the starter switch... once in neutral it will and does start instantly..
On a couple of occasions I get a slight (tug) from the bike like the clutch is engaged (but I have the clutch lever completely pulled in) but only oh so slightly and it's very random..
When I installed my aftermarket levers it did something similar but the effect was immediate... Donut told me to check the levers and make sure they were centered etc and clean the switch..
I followed his instructions last year ( new bushings to center the levers, shimmed them so they were snug in the housings etc cleaned the switch at the clutch lever ) and it has worked flawlessly since...
The slow deterioration of the start function over the last week has made me wonder if one of the switches? ( my mind went to neutral safety immediately, dunno why)
I pulled both contacts off the switch just to confirm they were making contact, hit em with electric parts cleaner and re-installed... No effect.
Hopefully that helps.
I can't tell ya the name brand of the levers. They are chromed aluminum levers that look like flames to match the flamed mirrors I put on...
NO Idea who makes em.. but they have worked fine for the last 13k miles since I centered and shimmed them..

Just for the process of elimination, I'll pop the lever out when I get home this morning, pull and clean the clutch switch, pull the right side clamshell and clean the start switch as well.. I KNOW my battery terminals are tight.. I just redid my wiring and after I was done I tightened the battery bolts with a torque wrench to 20 ftlbs..
Here is what I think is going on. Neither the clutch switch, kickstand nor neutral switch will make the starter "Begin" to turn over and stop. You can eliminate your "Kickstand, or neutral" switches immediately. If these switches aren't working properly the bike will die when you put it in gear. (Think putting kick stand down) If it were the clutch switch it would either work or not. The most common problem that I have encountered with the clutch switch is the wires will work themselves loose and unplug. The only symptom is the bike will not even begin to turn over when in gear, kickstand up and clutch pulled in. (Think trying to start in gear, kickstand up and clutch not pulled in) That is the same thing as the clutch switch wires unplugged.
That leaves a voltage problem. You are not getting enough voltage to your starter motor, or the starter solenoid. Possible cause, battery going bad. Most likely cause, and you mentioned it earlier, is the starter switch contacts. This is the only thing that you have mentioned that will cause the symptoms that you are experiencing. I would clean the starter switch and see if your troubles go away. It they don't then check battery and battery and ground connections,
IMHO
Mike

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 12:56 PM
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OK...here are the components in the "start" circuit and how they work...

From the battery, the wire runs over to the starter relay switch. It goes thru the main fuse then to the ignition key switch. After you turn on the key it runs over to the engine stop switch (kill switch) when that is in the run position it will then send over to the starter switch. When you push the start button it will send power to the starter relay switch to pull in the solenoid to start the bike. All of these are on the power or positive side...

Now on the ground side you have things that are safety features and they provide the ground for the starter relay. Without a ground it will not work..

There are two available paths to ground for the relay...One is the neutral switch..If the bike is in neutral and everything works correctly the bike will start in neutral no matter what happens with the clutch or kickstand switch..The neutral switch is open when bike is in gear but when you put it in neutral it closes providing the path to ground...NOW...if the bike is in gear then you must have the clutch pulled in to close the clutch switch. then it continues to the kickstand switch. When the stand is up the switch is closed and the ground is completed. If the stand is down it is open and will not complete the ground...So you cannot start the bike in gear with the kickstand down, even if you pull the clutch in...

Hopefully this picture comes thru...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Starter circuit picture.jpg (73.1 KB, 9 views)
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so the scoot starts in neutral with the kickstand up or down. Will not start in gear with kickstand up and clutch lever pulled.
Ok Starts in neutral, shift into gear put kickstand down, stalls instantly. Neutral switch / kickstand switch working as intended...
Been up for 28 hours and getting cranky. Play with it more later. thinking on installing a jumper on clutch switch perhaps ..

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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-09-2014, 02:08 PM
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Yep...sounds like clutch switch. excellent check on the kickstand down to kill it...Proves the kickstand switch is working properly..
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