Motor Oils and The VTX (By Tapper) - VTXOA
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Post Motor Oils and The VTX (By Tapper)

This was an intensive article by our own "Tapper" that I have taken from the old VTXOA Garage and put it here for anyone to read.
Chicago-Spike

Motor Oils and The VTX (By Tapper)

Over the past several months, we’ve all seen a deluge of questions about engine oils on the VTXOA technical boards. Which oil to use, when to change oil, whether to use synthetic, when to switch to synthetic – we’ve all seen hundreds of posts on the subject. We’ve also seen a lot of misinformation being bandied about as well. Old wives tales still persist with regularity, including the “your rings won’t seat if you run synthetic too early” line, and the old “synthetics will make your seals fail” saw, or perhaps the “your clutch will turn into a pumkin” hoo-ha. A lot of bunk. And the purveyors of it repeat it like gospel, so it can be hard to sort the wheat from the chaff in the debate. So, being the Internet afficianado that I am, I used the tool, and got good and greasy on the net, to find out what the truth was for myself.

This short paper is an attempt to get closer to the truth of the matter, and throw a little light on the matter. You’ll probably note, that there really can’t be a one-size fits all recommendation. But we also know, that the variations must start at an optimum choice. And right now, there is no agreement on which oil works best in this bike. And lets face it – before we can really talk sensibly about the subject, we need to know a little more about oils in general.

So the following is what I put together after reading a butt-load of articles, and staring at a bunch of oil analyses submitted by the posters on “BobIsTheOilGuy.com” and “oilanalyses.com”. All this information is out there if you google for it, and spend some time reading, and that’s just what I did. Thankfully, there are actually a bunch of serious gear-heads out there who have really gotten deep down into the science of lubricating motors, and there’s also some industry scientists that continue to throw in their unique knowledge and help a brudda out.

So hopefully, when you’ve finished reading this little missive from me, you’ll at least have an idea what you want to run in your scooter, and why. And with any luck, you’ll be able to ignore the bunk spouted off as fact when you see it. Just remember this – lubricating your VTX, and keeping the fluids maintained appropriately, is the single most important thing you can do to keep your engine running well, and make the bike last a long time. It only makes sense, to be smart about what you are doing, find out what the right thing to do is, and then do it.

Continued in next post...

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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The Basics of Oil
Modern day motor oils, all share some basic characteristics in common. First, and foremost, is that they must fall within a certain viscosity range to be useful in lubricating a motor. The standard used to measure viscosity is usually the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) scale, and the reasonable range is between 0 and 50 units. The lower the SAE number, the lighter and runnier the oil is. Higher numbers, mean heavier and slower running. This is important, because oils behave differently at different temperatures. At a given temperature, an oil may be too light to hang around long enough to provide adequate lubrication, or it may be too heavy to be able to penetrate into all the surfaces that need lubricating. Heavy oils also resist being pumped by the motor’s oil pump, and it takes work to do so. So, getting the right viscosity for a given operating temperature is a lot like tasting porridge at the three bears house – this one is tooo light, that one is tooo heavy. But this one is just right!

Most motor oils today are made from one of two different general methods. The “Dino” oils (so-called because they are the remnants of things that were alive millions of years ago), are refined from crude mineral oil by being separated from the rest of the crude by boiling point, or by molecular weight. These oils can have different properties based on the type of crude that was used to refine them, the technique used to refine them, and many many other factors. But the bottom line, is they all originally sprang from dinosaur poo, or other such nastiness (ok, actually diatomaceous or planktonic hydrocarbon residue, but you get the point – old dead stuff).

Synthetic oils are manufactured by design, from other molecular substances. Usually by reacting gasses, or something of the sort. A true synthetic oil is composed of all molecules of the same molecular weight – a property which greatly increases their resistance to temperature changes, and reduces the inter-molecular resistance to flow. There are several base stocks produced this way, but for our purposes, the most common one is called PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin). You’ll also occasionally see Ester-based synthetics, and these can be superior to PAO base stocks (and equally, can be worse, especially to silicon seals), but most of the consumer stuff you see comes from PAO.

Except.

Certain manufactures have recently begun to call their dino oils “synthetic” because they’ve been processed using hydro-crackers, or other advanced refining or reconstructive techniques. Very naughty. You’ll be surprised to learn, that a considerable number of oils currently marketed as “synthetic”, really aren’t synthetic oils at all, but are part of a group usually referred to as “Group III” (or hydrowax) oils. They still came out of the refining process, but manufacturers wanting to cash in on the reputation enjoyed by synthetics as high-performance oils, just plain cheat, and call their class III oils “synthetics.” Shame, shame, shame. In fairness, Group III oils can come very close or even exceed the performance characteristics of PAO based oils. But most of them don’t. And we shouldn’t be expected to pay PAO-class prices for oil that is vastly cheaper to manufacture.

All this is great, but it’s only half the story. These base stock oils still aren’t useful as engine lubricants. You have to add a bunch of chemicals to the oils in order to make them useful in your VTX. It’s the additives that make the difference between brands of oil, and each recipe of additives is formulated for a specific purpose. It’s very important to get the right mix for your application, or you risk nasty wear and icky stuff building up inside your VTX’s guts. Very bad scene. Thankfully, we have lots of decent choices, and so the issue becomes “which of these decent choices, is the best choice?” Choosing an oil is all about choosing the right additive package, in the long haul.

So what’s in these additive packages? Generally, the chemicals have many utterly unpronounceable names, but thankfully can be separated into a few broad categories:

Viscosity Enhancers: If the base stock of the oil is SAE 30 weight, and you want to make an oil that can behave like a 50 weight oil, you add VI compounds to the oil, and hey presto! Multi-weight oil. Multi-weight oils are the most commonly used these days, and provide a real boon to riders needing oils to accommodate a wider climatic variety than mere 30w would provide. But this comes at a price – bear in mind, that when stressed hard by pressure or temperature, the VI additives can be overstressed, and the oil reverts back to it’s base weight. So that nifty 15w-50 oil might really be running as a 20 or 30 weight, when you are running your RPM’s in VTX grin country.

Anti-Wear Compounds: These are compounds designed to protect the motor from metal-metal contact. ZDDP is the most common of these and is composed mostly of Zinc and Phosphorous. Note, that recent EPA actions have set maximum amounts of phosphorous that can be present in oils marked as SJ or SL, because the Ph has a tendency to cause premature failure of catalytic converters. However, fear not, for the restrictions apply only to weights less than 30 as a rule. Therefore 10w-40 or 15w-50 oils are exempt from the restrictions. However, since these additives cost money, many oil companies are putting fewer in them in their oils now. It’s a good thing to have respectable levels of these in oil used in motorcycles, because of the stress the oil is put to, and the tendency for oil molecules to “shear” (get chopped up) by transmission gears and other sharp high speed surfaces, and the occaisional laziness of the owners – who wait too long to change oil.

Detergents – These chemicals prevent various acids and free radicals from forming varnishes or other deposits inside your engine. They are usually made of various compounds of calcium, Sodium, or Magnesium, and act to neutralize acids, and prevent carbon from compounding in the motor.

Dispersants – act to keep the little particles of metal and carbon floating in the oil, instead of sticking to other metal, and causing nasty friction increases.

Corrosion Inhibitors – neutralize acids and other nasties that cause oxidation or rusting inside your motor.

Pour Point Depressants – Keep the oil flowing at lower temperatures.

Antioxidants – Help slow down the decomposition of the oil by oxidation – the primary cause of oils wearing out.

Friction Modifiers – Molybdenum (Moly), Lard, Boron, various other compounds that act to reduce the coefficient of friction of surfaces treated with the oil. Too many of these can make your clutch slip, but they also provide benefits to horsepower and motor efficiency. So too few is bad too. There’s a lot made of clutch slipping, particularly with regards to moly – but real world results have shown that sometimes moly in oil causes no problems at all – and moly is a mighty good anti-scuff agent to have in oil.

There are lots more, including anti-foamants, metal deactivators, seal swell agents, etc.

Bear in mind, that about 20% of your motor oil is composed of all these additives, and they are the single most important factor in determining which oil is “best” for your application. Its also important to understand that PAO (synthetic) base stocks have a lower coefficient of friction to start with, and oxidize much more slowly than refined (Dino) oils.

Factors in Choosing the Oil
So now we know what the oils are made up of, but we still need to answer the most important question – which oil is best? In order to do that, lets examine some of the factors we need to take into account.

The first, is the type of motor we are working with – a big 1800cc V-Twin, water cooled, working at relatively low RPM’s, but at a high piston speed. So we need a fairly low coefficient of friction, to protect the cylinder walls and rings. We need an oil that can pour and pump well, to get lube into those big jugs when we start it, and those big coffee can sized pistons produce a lot of carbon, so we need some detergents for sure. We also have a wet clutch, so we want to go light on the friction modifiers, but we need good anti-wear compounds because we have a lot of close tolerance metal to work with. Water cooling means we operate at lower temperatures than say, a Harley, so we can get by with a lower viscosity and gain something in motor efficiency and horsepower in the process. Too heavy an oil just wastes energy, and makes the oil harder to pump than it needs to be. Lastly, the heavier the oil, the more susceptible it is to shearing, and we need an oil to be fairly shear resistant, what with all those straight cut gears churning away all the time.

Given all these factors, and the known properties of modern oils, it seems obvious that synthetic oils are clearly the best choice for the VTX. Although there are several dino oils that will work and work well, the synthetics just have too many advantages to ignore.

First of all, synthetics maintain their viscosity better, and this is a critical function in an engine in which the transmission, cylinders, and clutch all share the same oil. Those square cut gears really play hell on oils, chopping the oil molecules up into smaller bits, and causing the viscosity to breakdown (called shearing). Synthetics are considerably more shear resistant than dino oils, and maintain their viscosity over a much wider temperature range than mineral oils do. They also oxidize much slower, and therefore, last longer in your crankcase.

Second, dino oils are refined out of a witches brew of molecular polymers, and even the best and most careful refining processes still leave a lot of contaminants in the final result. Dino oils contain a fairly wide range of molecular sizes, including lots of parafins. They also contain sulfides, and other nasty bits that can help contribute to sludge in the engine when the oil begins to oxidize out. Synthetics oxidize much more cleanly than dino oils, and produce very little sludge or varnish. The PAO-based and Ester-based oils are also uniform in molecular weight, and that’s the big reason they maintain their viscosity so much better.

Third, synthetic oils maintain a lower coefficient of friction than Dino oils, and that is, after all, the primary purpose of an oil – to reduce friction in an engine. They do this because their uniform molecular weight assists in maintaining the sorts of properties oil needs to be a good lubricant – including superior surface tension (resulting in higher film strength), and improved ability to develop boundary layers.

Fourth, synthetic oils maintain their properties over a significantly wider range of temperatures than dino oils – as you would expect, since synthetics were originally developed to run in jet engines, which burn very very hot, and yet operate in very very cold places (i.e. 40,000 feet up – it’s friggin cold up there). No dino oil can compete with the temperature sensitivity of a synthetic oil.

Fifth, the superior lubricating properties, and improved pumpability of synthetic oils means your motor spends less work keeping itself slick. That translates directly into increased horsepower, and improved fuel mileage. In some cases, dynomometers have shown horespower increases of 2%-3% gained, simply by switching to a synthetic oil over an existing dino oil (which probably gains you more than a lot of bolt-on “performance” parts do!) That’s not sales hype either – I found several guys that ran dyno tests on their own bikes, and verified the increases for themselves.

All this translates directly to factors that are important to us in choosing an oil for our VTX. Our big cylinders need oils with a high film strength, to withstand the pressures produced by very long stroke and fast moving pistons. We’ve got very large square cut gears churning the oil like mad, and testing our oil’s resistance to shear-induced viscosity breakdown. We run a wet clutch, that tends to toss off a good bit of particulate matter. And we have small areas of localized high temperature, which test an oils temperature sensitivity – and fight against our oil pumps ability to pump the oil up and into our jugs well enough to keep things slick in there. Lastly, Honda machines these motors to fairly close tolerances in many places, so some good anti-wear compounds might be a damn good idea.

There can be no question. Unless you are cash-strapped, synthetic oils based on PAO are the only way to fly.

But I gotta use motorcycle oil, right?
Wrong.

Another item of interest, is the long running debate over motorcycle oils versus auto oils. It’s a fact, that manufacturers charge hefty premiums for cycle oils, leading most of us to wonder if the differences are worth the money. The manufacturers have worked hard to instill the fear in us, that failing to pay those premium prices means that we will be harming our bikes with inadequate lubrication. This quote from a Motorcycle Consumer News study, pretty well sums it up:

The campaigns promoting motorcycle-specific oils have successfully indoctrinated an entire Generation of motorcycle riders and mechanics. The doctrine is now so ingrained in the industry that questioning its veracity instantly marks you as an ill-educated outsider. Even MCN has fallen victim to the hype, espousing the superiority of such products in these very pages. Our own technical experts from the American Motorcycle Institute have repeatedly advised our readers against the dangers of straying from the straight and narrow path.
There have been several reports done on this subject, but to sum it all up – there isn’t much difference. The primary thing manufacturers add to cycle oils, appears to be higher levels of ZDDP, but studies show that both oils break down at approximately the same rate, and that the differences between auto and motorcycle oils from the same manufacturer are minimal or even non-existant. So, spending that extra cash doesn’t really buy you anything, if there’s a comparable auto oil made by the same folks, with the same basic properties. The problem is, you’re going to have to face down this fear-inducing hype to get over it, and save yourself some dough. Since ZDDP appears to be the big sticky point, keep this in mind: “ZDDP is a "last line of defense"-type anti-scuffing additive, generally only coming into play under extremely severe conditions where actual metal-to-metal contact occurs within an engine, something that should never happen under normal operating conditions” - MCN. It’s vastly more important to get oil through the pump quickly on startup, and to keep oil with it’s viscosity intact in your crankcase, than it is to load the oil with anti-scuff compounds you shouldn’t ever need unless you screw up and let your oil oxidize down to sludge, or use oil too thick to pump when it’s cold, or the motor is just starting up.

And besides – oil analysis run by lots of enthusiasts through laboratories like Blackstone Labs, has pretty well proven that many auto oils, in an appropriate viscosity range for the VTX (i.e. 10w-40 or 15w-50) have just as much ZDDP as motorcycle oils do. Re-read that sentence as many times as you need to. We’ve been bull****ted.

But my dealer said to wait 130,000 miles until my rings had sealed before changing to a synthetic?

Well, that’s because your dealer is either A) Ignorant, or B) trying to sell you his overpriced dino-based motorcycle oil that he makes a huge profit margin on. But here’s the fact brothers – This isn’t 1950 anymore, and metallurgy and the processes for boring cylinders has come a long way baby. Most modern motors come from the factory pretty well broken in, and the VTX should probably be considered “broken in” within the first hour of run time. If your rings haven’t been worn pretty much all they are going to in the first hour of run-time, then you’re probably going to have a problem anyway, and which oil you run isn’t going to change the issue for you.

Bottom line – use cheap oil for the first two changes, and change it fast – about 600 miles for each. That will flush out all the early wear particles from various moving parts like bearings, clutch plates, and so forth. Then, switch to a good synthetic oil, knowing you’ve just done the smart thing for your motor. Regardless, the sooner you get synthetic in there, the better off your motor will be, and the longer it will last. If anyone argues with you about it, just say “Well, Tapper said…”. After all, it’s not like they’re going to know I’m just some joker who spent three weeks reading really dull scientific pontifications about oil, now are they? Quoting some assumed authority always makes people shut up, especially when they don’t really know if your authority is really all that.

Ok, so which oil?
Meat and potatoes time. If you’ve ever walked down the oil aisle at Wal-Mart, you know there’s just a big pile of choices in oil. Ultimately though, the choices narrow down to just a few that are ideal. Of course, absolutely everyone you talk to is using some oil or other that “works for them”, but the reality is, using a crap oil usually won’t show negative results for a long time. So just because Joe Bob is using Wal-Marts recycled dino oil today “with no problems” doesn’t mean his bearings aren’t going to fail tomorrow. If Joe Bob is using junk like that, you can be pretty sure his advice is worth about as much as the oil he’s using. The idea here, isn’t just to find something that works marginally, it’s to find the “best” oil for the VTX.

The various Honda oils - Honda repackages "barrel oil" and sells it under it's own brand name for a huge premium in price. No telling what oil they bought to do this with this week, but in the past, it's just been another "wallyworld" type oil. If you're just dying to spend a lot extra on so-so oil, or want to support Honda by giving them probably $4.75 profit on a $5 dollar bottle of wallyworld oil, then go for it. I'll probably mjake fun of you behind your back though, FYI.


Dino Oil – Well, the lower priced spread. If bucks matter, you’ll be looking here. I can afford the extra 10-15 bucks per oil change for my X, so I go synthetic, but different strokes. It isn’t really going to save you any money in the long haul, but it’s up to you man.

Mobil DelVac 1300, 15w-40 - Ok, you’re short bucks, and want to get the best you can on a limited budget. I suggest you try this one. It’s a heavy duty oil (often called “diesel oil”, and contains an excellent additive package, as well as a high TBN number. Good stuff. Various people have reported excellent results with this oil, and it’s engineered into the range we need. The shifting will be clunkier than with a synthetic or Group III oil, but the price is right. Change interval should be about 2500-3000 miles or so. Don’t be tardy. I would definitely suggest this oil for the first two drain intervals on the bike, which you should try to do at 600 miles, and 1200 miles, just to get all the initial wear particulates out of your engine.

Shell Rotella T 5w-40 – This is labeled as a synthetic, but its really a hydrowax oil (Group III). However, it shows pretty good properties for a dino oil, and is available over the counter. It is reputed to aid shifting nearly as much as a full synthetic, but your mileage may vary – those big square cut gears on the X will put it to the test. Slightly more expensive than DelVac, but less expensive than a real PAO oil. Change interval should be about 3000 miles, and you can expect it to shear back to 30W viscosity pretty quickly.

Synthetic – There are a bunch of pretty much equal choices here, and it’s hard to go too far wrong, if you stay within the basic needs of the VTX. Ideally, we want at least a 10w-40 and a 0w-40 might be an even better choice to get the oil up the jugs quickly, or if you are in Canada (eh?) or in the far frozen north of the U.S. (poor bastage). We need a good additive package, and we want to stay away from an energy conserving (i.e. friction modifiers added) oil. We’d also like to avoid the ridiculous premium tacked on just for the priviledge of being a “motorcycle oil”, if possible.

Mobil One Red Cap 15w-50 is a good choice, if perhaps a bit heavy for a water cooled bike. You’ll loose a fraction of energy pumping the heavier oil (but only for the first 1000 miles or so, see below), but experience has shown it to be a good choice overall for the X. Please note – “Super Syn” is basically just a marketing change of name of the additive package, rather than a new “secret ingredient”. It most definitely is not Moly, and appears to work just fine in wet clutch bikes. Price-wise, it’s the best all-around choice. Beware though – this oil has been known to shear back to about 30W viscosity within the first 1000 miles. Don’t do extended drains with it. Change oil at 3000 miles, with religion. Usually sells for between $4 and $5 a quart. Has a dose of ZDDP, but could have more.

Tapper's note: Alas, Mobil no longer makes the old tried and true Red Cap. We don't yet have enough experience with the newer breeds of this oil to render an informed opinion on it yet. Stay tuned...

Mobil One MX4T is an excellent oil for the X, except for the almost doubling of cost over the other M1 choices. The V-Twin (20w-50) is too heavy all around – it’s formulated for air-cooled engines, and that ain’t what we have here Gomer. MX4T is probably the ideal over-the-counter oil, with the exception of the price (damned motorcycle tag on label). You can expect somewhat longer drain intervals with this oil, perhaps in the region of 5000-7000 miles. Watch for this oil on sale, and grab a batch if you find it cheap.

Amsoil High Performance 10w-40 is another excellent choice, and a lot of guys use it. If you shop around, you can bag it by mail for a little less than 6 bucks a quart. It’s excellent stuff, by all reports. If you can stand the mail-order hassle, then this is probably the best all around choice. This is the oil I run in my VTX, and I've tested it enough through Blackstone labs to be completely comfortable changing oil every 8000 miles running amsoil. I change filters every 4000 miles, and top the oil off again. I usually buy this oil for around $4.50-$5.00 a quart, so I get excellent performance, and save money too. My kinda deal. No, I don't sell amsoil, and can't really refer you to a dealer. Google for them on the web.


Schaeffers, others – These boutique oils are often outstanding choices. A little more pricey, and you have to mail away for them. But if you really really want the best, then go for it. Shoot for a 10w-40 and avoid moly, and you can hardly go wrong. I haven’t used it, but I’ve seen some very knowledgeable people bragging hard on Schaeffers. Your mileage may vary here. Using one of these oils means getting smart about monitoring your oil. It may be a wonder oil, and it may not be. Beware – many boutique oils use a lot of moly and boron. May not be wet clutch friendly.

Oil Changes
One last word – Honda recommends change intervals for oil that are just stupid-long. Spend 20 minutes reading oil analyses on bobistheoilguy.com and you’ll see what I mean – Dino oils just don’t last that long, and especially not in motorcycles. Forget the service manuals recommendations, and change according to the actual working life of the oil you are using. For most dino oils, that’s going to be 2500-3000 miles and no more. Synthetics will go longer, so get to know the oil you are using before you gamble. If your oil viscosity is gone, or your additive package wears out, you are now burning engine life at a rapid rate. Don’t be a dope.

I’ve provided a few recommendations above based on published oil analysis in similar applications to the X, but only actual testing in a VTX will give completely reliable data, and only testing in your X will give you accurate data. Regular oil testing will also give you a very accurate picture of bearing wear inside your motor without ever cracking the case, so it might be worth the $20 a test cost, if you’re as anal about your bike as I am (for example).

Wrapping it up
There you have it. I’ll modify this document as I learn more, receive test results that matter, or new stuff gets released. Unfortunately, there hasn’t been any oil test data published for the VTX by anyone that I have been able to locate. I’ll be sending samples of my own oil out to Blackstone labs as I pile on the miles, but it would be nice if more people would do the same with a variety of different oils. These big 1800 v-twins cry out for their own testing and information.
If you feel there’s an error in this article, point it out. But be forewarned – provide some kind of backup with your corrections. And I’ll be right up front here – I don’t give a crap what your local Dealer’s salesman, or jakeleg mechanic has to say about anything. Show me scientific evidence, or make a fully logical argument. But don’t repeat someone’s “sage advice” (it’s usually crap). But if I’m wrong, I want to correct the bad info, so fire away.

And I encourage you to learn more. Since you’re reading this, you’ve got access to the net. Try http://www.google.com - there’s enough reading there to last you a good long while. Some good, some (ok, a lot) bad. I found a ton of anecdotal articles by “learned” jakelegs that were just bullpucky. I’ve provided a few links I found especially useful at the bottom of this article to help you get started.

Anyway, hope this helped you in some way. Now let’s go ride bro.

References:

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com - Excellent forum populated by various oil enthusiasts and experts, including various industry representatives. Lots of good info here. Recommended highly.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ - Reasonably priced oil analysis laboratory to get your oil tests done at. Provides a free kit to use to capture and send off the oil with.

http://www.oilanalysis.com/message_boards/default.asp - Another online community of oil enthusiasts. Some crossover with the bobistheoilguy.com traffic, but a lot of good information there nonetheless.


Brian "Tapper" Davis
Texas X Riders
Vtxoa.com
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-15-2009, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Great article

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 12:29 PM
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Great reading, really enjoyed it I to have always used Synthetics in my truck, but I am new to motorcycles and did not know if it would be good to do. I have always liked that they are not "carbon" based and we all know what happens to carbon when it gets to hot
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-19-2009, 06:05 PM
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Great article, thanks to Chicago Spike and Tapper.

Note, Mobil 1 MX4T has been renamed to the common European label of Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10w-40, same oil different name.

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-25-2009, 08:28 PM
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I agree with your article completely as I work for Castrol and only use synthetics in most cases. You did note that you change you oil filter every 4000 miles, but some may not understand the reason you are doing this.

The synthetic oil technology is great, but there are still debri (that what us lube engineers call metal fines, carbon, oxides and other junk) floating in the oil. The filter removes the debri as the oil passes through the filter. The filters are only so large and can only capture so much of this debri before the can capture no more. This is generally way before you ever come to the end of the life of a synthetic oil. Therefore there is an issue if some one wants to run the synthetic oil for 8000 - 15000 miles as some companies recommend. The filter technology and size limits how much can be captured over a period of time. There are also better filters and poor filters but I am not going into that right now. Everyone that uses synthetics in their bike needs to still change the filter about every 4000 - 5000 miles. Since cars have bigger filters they can go longer, but still not the entire length of the oils.

Some of you may like to know that I have seen data on some synthetic oils that were used for over 50,000 and considered to be in good operating condition.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 02:35 PM
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i am now using moble 1 i get at walmart for about 8.95 a quart which is not bad one question how does royal purple cycle max rate

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transam1978 View Post
I agree with your article completely as I work for Castrol and only use synthetics in most cases. You did note that you change you oil filter every 4000 miles, but some may not understand the reason you are doing this.

The synthetic oil technology is great, but there are still debri (that what us lube engineers call metal fines, carbon, oxides and other junk) floating in the oil. The filter removes the debri as the oil passes through the filter. The filters are only so large and can only capture so much of this debri before the can capture no more. This is generally way before you ever come to the end of the life of a synthetic oil. Therefore there is an issue if some one wants to run the synthetic oil for 8000 - 15000 miles as some companies recommend. The filter technology and size limits how much can be captured over a period of time. There are also better filters and poor filters but I am not going into that right now. Everyone that uses synthetics in their bike needs to still change the filter about every 4000 - 5000 miles. Since cars have bigger filters they can go longer, but still not the entire length of the oils.

Some of you may like to know that I have seen data on some synthetic oils that were used for over 50,000 and considered to be in good operating condition.
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters (EaO)
Made with premium-grade full synthetic media. Ea Oil Filters feature advanced full synthetic nanofiber technology, making them the highest efficiency filters that are available for the auto/light truck market. AMSOIL EaO Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic motor oil in normal service. In severe service, change oil and filter at recommended severe service oil drain interval.

Absolute Efficiency
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters (EaO) have the best efficiency rating in the industry. EaO Filters provide a filtering efficiency in accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 of 98.7 percent at 15 microns, while competitive filters containing conventional cellulose medias range from 40 to 80 percent efficiency.
Less Restriction
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters have significantly lower restriction than conventional cellulose media filters. Their small synthetic nanofibers trap smaller particles and hold more contaminants, resulting in lower restriction. During cold temperature warm-up periods, an EaO lube filter allows the oil to easily flow through the filter compared to a typical cellulose filter. Lower restriction decreases engine wear.
More Capacity
A filter’s capacity refers to the amount of contaminants it can hold and still remain effective. AMSOIL EaO Filters have a far greater capacity than competing filter lines. When used in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic motor oils in normal service, EaO Filters are guaranteed to remain effective for up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
Superior Construction
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters are made with premium-grade full synthetic media. The strictly controlled processing of this media ensures accurate filter construction, and is what allows Ea Oil Filters to deliver higher capacity and efficiency along with better durability.
Over the service life of a conventional cellulose filter, hot oil will degrade the resins that bind the media. The Ea Oil Filters’ full synthetic media technology is resin-free. It uses a wire screen backing that is pleated with the media for superior strength.
Ea Oil Filters are constructed with HNBR nitrile gaskets that are fully tested to extreme distances in numerous severe environments. The filters also feature fully tucked seams, a molded element seal, roll-formed threads and a long-lasting premium-grade silicone anti-drain valve.
Applications
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters provide superior oil filtration for vehicles in the auto/light truck market.
Service Life
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil. AMSOIL recommends changing the oil filter at the time of oil change.
If used in conjunction with AMSOIL Motor Oil that is being changed at intervals less than 25,000 miles, the EaO Filter should be changed at the same time. AMSOIL EaO Filters are not guaranteed for 25,000 miles when used with any oil other than AMSOIL Motor Oil and should be changed according to vehicle OEM recommendations.




PRODUCT LOOKUP GUIDESFILTER LOOKUP GUIDESINSTALLATION INFOCROSS REFERENCE GUIDESCOMPARATIVE TESTINGMISCELLANEOUS

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-24-2009, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark_1bx View Post
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters (EaO)
Made with premium-grade full synthetic media. Ea Oil Filters feature advanced full synthetic nanofiber technology, making them the highest efficiency filters that are available for the auto/light truck market. AMSOIL EaO Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic motor oil in normal service. In severe service, change oil and filter at recommended severe service oil drain interval.

Absolute Efficiency
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters (EaO) have the best efficiency rating in the industry. EaO Filters provide a filtering efficiency in accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 of 98.7 percent at 15 microns, while competitive filters containing conventional cellulose medias range from 40 to 80 percent efficiency.
Less Restriction
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters have significantly lower restriction than conventional cellulose media filters. Their small synthetic nanofibers trap smaller particles and hold more contaminants, resulting in lower restriction. During cold temperature warm-up periods, an EaO lube filter allows the oil to easily flow through the filter compared to a typical cellulose filter. Lower restriction decreases engine wear.
More Capacity
A filter’s capacity refers to the amount of contaminants it can hold and still remain effective. AMSOIL EaO Filters have a far greater capacity than competing filter lines. When used in conjunction with AMSOIL synthetic motor oils in normal service, EaO Filters are guaranteed to remain effective for up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.
Superior Construction
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters are made with premium-grade full synthetic media. The strictly controlled processing of this media ensures accurate filter construction, and is what allows Ea Oil Filters to deliver higher capacity and efficiency along with better durability.
Over the service life of a conventional cellulose filter, hot oil will degrade the resins that bind the media. The Ea Oil Filters’ full synthetic media technology is resin-free. It uses a wire screen backing that is pleated with the media for superior strength.
Ea Oil Filters are constructed with HNBR nitrile gaskets that are fully tested to extreme distances in numerous severe environments. The filters also feature fully tucked seams, a molded element seal, roll-formed threads and a long-lasting premium-grade silicone anti-drain valve.
Applications
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters provide superior oil filtration for vehicles in the auto/light truck market.
Service Life
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filters are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, when used in conjunction with AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oil. AMSOIL recommends changing the oil filter at the time of oil change.
If used in conjunction with AMSOIL Motor Oil that is being changed at intervals less than 25,000 miles, the EaO Filter should be changed at the same time. AMSOIL EaO Filters are not guaranteed for 25,000 miles when used with any oil other than AMSOIL Motor Oil and should be changed according to vehicle OEM recommendations.




PRODUCT LOOKUP GUIDESFILTER LOOKUP GUIDESINSTALLATION INFOCROSS REFERENCE GUIDESCOMPARATIVE TESTINGMISCELLANEOUS
Do you lose a lot of oil if you replace the oil filter only? Just wondering how much oil will be required to top up.

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Slinkydriver is offline  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-24-2009, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Slinkydriver View Post
Do you lose a lot of oil if you replace the oil filter only? Just wondering how much oil will be required to top up.
You drop about a pint(1/2 of a quart ) of oil by swapping the filter.

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