Tired ole man needs help

[Waynesworld]

Finally got out of the house, up to the Dragon, with my Road King buddy W/apes, he tells me it's like power steerig, and another companion with a
Kaw 500-Ninja. We must have looked a little mismatched, especially my X with the darkside on the rear. Had no trouble, except for scraping my pegs numerous times. The power curve of the X in third most of the way through, made for some enjoyable Dragonslaying. Anyhoo, instead of gloating over the trip, I need to know of any of you mechanic types that may be able to do a valve adjustment on the 2002 1800-C for A fair price in the Smyrna, Ga area, if so, you can call me at 770-805-0765. Hey Yergi, If you're reading this, I would appreciate info on where you got the extra length hydraulic lines for the apes conversion you also mentioned some plug and play wire works that I'd like to know about if possible. I went to your profile and din't see a phone #. I think I need the apes, since the dragons tail on the darkside, seemed to be a workout with the stock handlebars.

Allright everyone, let the riding begin!!!

[yergi]

they hydraulic lines are not problem. Any motorcycle shop that sells any harley chrome will probably sell custom hydraulic lines. all you do is choose the right size banjo fitting, with the right amount of index (bend) and choose the right length line... then screw the together. it is really simple and cool. Now cables are a different story. they will have to be made. but the same shop should be able to order them. Mine are motion-Pro. i think. They will just look in one of their catalogs and order them for ya. with the 1800 you will need 2 hydraulic and 2 cables. You may want to make sure that the braided cables will look like the braided lines. mine look a little different and they bother me a little. The plug and play connectors were because i didnt re-use any of the honda switches or switch housings. if you are going to reuse these switches you may be better just extending the wires by soldering extensions in the middle, then you would still have factory plugs... i guess you could make up plug and play extensions... but then you would have connectors somewhere in mid way down your ape's. that would be a big deduction in cool points.

[Waynesworld]

Much thanks Yergi, Hope to see your bike in person some time soon, if I can get the scoop on an upcoming NW meet sometime in the near future. Again thanks, and enjoy the married life. I myself hope to meet someone that I might matter to, although I'm not holding my breath, since I don't get out much, ya know with me being somewhat of an introvert without A life to speak of.

Keep the shiny side up, the best life has to offer to everyone.

[Tin_Can_Terminator]

I am curious as to how the APES help steering the bike.

What is the concept that allows the APES to turn easier?

TCT

[Kavman]

I am curious as to how the APES help steering the bike.

What is the concept that allows the APES to turn easier?

TCT

Maybe it's easier pulling down on the bars to turn compared to pushing down on them, I don't know...Why are you asking me anyway? :lol:

[GeminiII]

I am curious as to how the APES help steering the bike.

What is the concept that allows the APES to turn easier?

TCT
I would guess the longer bars would create more leverage in turning them….
... or maybe when you’re just “out of control” the bike seems to turn much easier on it’s own. :lol:

Darkside with ApeHangers…. Hmmmm? :roll:
Now that would seem to be a Real Challenge to adjust to.

I’m going to try the Darkside on my 1800 next tire change.

[Waynesworld]

When I look at the longer bars being higher, I think of the leverage that I used to get my car up off the ground to change A flat when I didn't have A jack. Seems to me that longer bars would make my heavy weight X A bit easier to throw from side to side in the twisties, Also if I go to A little wider bar I would think the leverage would apply again. Of couse this isn't A free thing, as we all know the wider the bars, the more distance I would have to move the handgrips in relation to actual fork pivot. Seems to be associated with physics. I didn't get much education, so those that really know about these things would be of immense help by posting your input. Maybe the next time I am breaking loose A nut, with wrench or rachet, I'll first try breaking it loose by gripping next to the nut, and then trying farther out at the end of the wrench, just to see which takes more pressure to break it loose.

I have A habit of not trusting my thinking'

[yergi]

When I look at the longer bars being higher, I think of the leverage that I used to get my car up off the ground to change A flat when I didn't have A jack. Seems to me that longer bars would make my heavy weight X A bit easier to throw from side to side in the twisties, Also if I go to A little wider bar I would think the leverage would apply again. Of couse this isn't A free thing, as we all know the wider the bars, the more distance I would have to move the handgrips in relation to actual fork pivot. Seems to be associated with physics. I didn't get much education, so those that really know about these things would be of immense help by posting your input. Maybe the next time I am breaking loose A nut, with wrench or rachet, I'll first try breaking it loose by gripping next to the nut, and then trying farther out at the end of the wrench, just to see which takes more pressure to break it loose.

I have A habit of not trusting my thinking'


To tell the truth, i have no idea why it changes things, but it does. Physics speaking it should have no effect on the turning the forks from side to side. It would be the equivalent of breaking a nut loose with your socket straight on the ratchet, and then trying a similar nut with a 6" extension in between the ratchet and the socket. but as well all know you don't really steer a bike by turning the handle bars. taller bars would make it easier to pick up a dropped bike, so obviously it would help in flick it over if you were standing beside the bike.... but i cant see how it would help while sitting astride the iron pony.... In short, i don't know.

[Waynesworld]

Iwas imagining the leverage difference of A longer handled rachet, say A12" as opposed to usiing A stubby handled rachet. Kind of like A longer throw crankshaft in an engine developing more torque.

[Waynesworld]

I was imagining the leverage difference of A longer handled rachet, say A 12" as opposed to using A stubby handled rachet. Kind of like A longer throw crankshaft in an engine developing more torque. not that of A longer crankshaft, being in effect the same as the extension between the socket and the head of the rachet.

[Prickster]

Check into EricR's help on the valve adjustment. He's a fellow X'er up in Taylorsville. :wink:

[GeminiII]

To tell the truth, i have no idea why it changes things, but it does. Physics speaking it should have no effect on the turning the forks from side to side. It would be the equivalent of breaking a nut loose with your socket straight on the ratchet, and then trying a similar nut with a 6" extension in between the ratchet and the socket. but as well all know you don't really steer a bike by turning the handle bars. taller bars would make it easier to pick up a dropped bike, so obviously it would help in flick it over if you were standing beside the bike.... but i cant see how it would help while sitting astride the iron pony.... In short, i don't know.
Yergi, I’m not sure what you said, but I like the way you said it.
I believe it was “I Don’t Know” but with just a lot more words.
Now, you're thinking like a Gemini ! :wink:

You are actually turning the bars when you push on them even if it’s ever so slight.

I’m beginning to think my second explanation previously posted above is as good as any… so far.

[yergi]

I was imagining the leverage difference of A longer handled ratchet, say A 12" as opposed to using A stubby handled rachet. Kind of like A longer throw crankshaft in an engine developing more torque. not that of A longer crankshaft, being in effect the same as the extension between the socket and the head of the ratchet.

yeah, i figured that is what you meant. the scenario i described would be very different from your stubby ratchet and a big ratchet with a cheater bar attached. Yours would make a big difference. mine would not. But looking at the length of the moment arm (length of the handle on the ratchet) it doesn't really change with HIGHER bars. Maybe it is more straight out from your shoulder and you can make more power easier in your arms/shoulders. like trying to bench press weight that is setting above your chest, or bench pressing the same weight that is above your navel. haha, i said navel. I really feel this is what the difference is.

[Waynesworld]

Hey Gemini, What kind of sidecovers on your bike, and where might I get some. Good lookin ride.

[GeminiII]

Hey Gemini, What kind of sidecovers on your bike, and where might I get some. Good lookin ride.
I bought my 1300 used with about 2000 miles on it. I've made several mods to it that wasn't already there such as an Ultimate lowrider seat. Vance & Hines pipes, Memphis Shade and leather bags were the only mods I recognized that came with it. The chrome sidecovers was not my mod and I assume it's stock Honda parts for the 2005 year. I have more mods awaiting but with three bikes riding takes precedence over the mods.

[littleJohnnyfromNJ]

You are actually turning the bars when you push on them even if it’s ever so slight.
you're actually not turning the forks at all... pressure on the left causes lean to the left... while you may think they are turning slightly, they are not because of the force of the forward momentum on the tires keeps the tire straight... if they were in fact being turned, then pressure on the left would make you go right, as in a slow-speed counter steer... pressure on the left handle causes the bike to lean, not turn... the reason why pressure on the left handle causes the wheel to "turn" in a slow coutner-steer (u-turn for example) is that there is no force of forward momentum causing the wheel to stay straight. In a high-speed turn, the pressure on the left handle causes it to turn left for no other reason than weight shift on the motorcycle. You could also turn left by removing your hands from the handlebars and putting pressure on your left foot peg... (of course this is not wise to do on a VTX1300 due to the dreaded wobble!) :shock: :shock: :shock:

I would assume that the reason that TALLER handle bars turn easier with less effort is becaue of the pivot effect... it would take siginifcantly less effort (like a rachet sort of) at a distance from the point of contact, than at a closer point of contact... think balancing a ball on top of a short tube, versus a longer tube... the short tube can have a lot of operator input and the ball does not fall off the top of the tube... on a very tall tube, the ball being balanced on top will fall off of balance much more easily with less operator input (hand movement)...

The chrome sidecovers was not my mod and I assume it's stock Honda parts for the 2005 year.

they are not stockers... you can get them here... not sure if HDL carries or not... you can also get them at the same plaec that Waynesworld got his!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list. ... ide_Covers (http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list.cfm?model_ID=0&category_ID=85&sblid=Side_Covers)

[Motorcycle Mike]

GeminiII wrote:
The chrome sidecovers was not my mod and I assume it's stock Honda parts for the 2005 year.


they are not stockers... you can get them here... not sure if HDL carries or not...
http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list. ... ide_Covers (http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list.cfm?model_ID=0&category_ID=85&sblid=Side_Covers) The chrome side covers are stock on 1300 R/S models

[littleJohnnyfromNJ]

GeminiII wrote:
The chrome sidecovers was not my mod and I assume it's stock Honda parts for the 2005 year.


they are not stockers... you can get them here... not sure if HDL carries or not...
http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list. ... ide_Covers (http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/list.cfm?model_ID=0&category_ID=85&sblid=Side_Covers) The chrome side covers are stock on 1300 R/S models


really??? never noticed them! Thanks, Mike!

Hey - - by the way... did you you do your repair last weekend on the front end?

[Motorcycle Mike]

Nope, Decided to do the progressive springs at the same time. They came in yesterday, so, when I get home today, up on the lift she goes. Hope all goes well and I complete it tomorow.

[Tin_Can_Terminator]

If you can, start a new thread letting us know how the swap went. I may want to do the bearings soon.

good luck!


TCT

[GeminiII]

Lil John…
I’ve been thinking and reading a lot about counter steering for a long time now just to figure out what is really happening when I push left, go left, push right, go right. I was really thinking like you and kept wondering why it was called "counter" "steering." Then I read what Keith Code has written about counter steering with diagrams included and his explanation of it. Are you familiar with the BS Bike (Body Steer Bike) he built? I think I now understand it so don’t go and burst my bubble after all the nights I’ve laid awake with this on my mind. :lol: Next time we get together we’ll get to the bottom of this subject if it keeps us Both up all night... :wink:

[littleJohnnyfromNJ]

Lil John…
I’ve been thinking and reading a lot about counter steering for a long time now just to figure out what is really happening when I push left, go left, push right, go right. I was really thinking like you and kept wondering why it was called "counter" "steering." Then I read what Keith Code has written about counter steering with diagrams included and his explanation of it. Are you familiar with the BS Bike (Body Steer Bike) he built? I think I now understand it so don’t go and burst my bubble after all the nights I’ve laid awake with this on my mind. :lol: Next time we get together we’ll get to the bottom of this subject if it keeps us Both up all night... :wink:

I'm a Cancer - - -I was born to mess with a Geini's head! LOL! :lol:

[littleJohnnyfromNJ]

If you can, start a new thread letting us know how the swap went. I may want to do the bearings soon.

good luck!


TCT

Would love to do the job with you - - perhaps we can do both at the same time? Would also liek to do progressive springs... maybe Uncle Mike would come and watch or help us!?!?!?

[EricR]

OK, I'm just going to throw my $.02 in on where this one went for LJ. :)

To understand steering on a motorcycle taks 2 approaches. At low speed you do not counter steer a bike, you turn into the turn just like on a car. Turn the bars left you go left, opposite to go right obviously.

However when you reach a certain speed...10-15-20mph depending on the bike, geometry etc. you then have to countersteer. To counter steer there are a couple ways to do it. One is to shift your weight, lean, whatever in the direction you want to go. When you do this, the front wheel does in fact turn slightly in the opposite direction do to the "gyroscopic" (for lack of a better vocabulary on my part) effect casued by the spinning wheel/tire.

The other way to cause this turn on a motorcycle is true countersteer (I think Gemini mentioned it above?) To turn left...push the left handle bar away (right turn of the wheel, right?) to turn right, push right.

If you think about this when you're riding along and try it you'll realize what you've been doing all along without realizing it. And the more you make a concious effort to "push" into your turns the easier it'll get to ride any bike, especially a big cruiser, through the curves.

I'm going to try to find a pic I used to have of a sportbike in a race, head on shot, leaned over as far as it could go and you can see the front wheel is turned the opposite way from the curve.

OK, I'll shut up now! :D
When are y'all going to ride up this way again?

[GeminiII]

It boggled my mind when I finally realized when I counter steer, (push right) my front wheel is turned left (if ever so slightly) but I’m going right. Most people would simply say “impossible” even though they have done it themselves when riding a bicycle over 12 MPH. One way of looking at this “what I call phenomenon” is by pushing the steering bar in the opposite direction (counter steer) you’re actually throwing the bike off balance and are causing it to “lean” in the direction you want it to go. The direction of the lean is the key and the counter steer is what initiated the lean. The Gyroscopic effect becomes involved and the bike is actually trying to keep itself from falling over due to it being thrown off-balance. This is what causes the turn in the direction you want to go.

Now, My Brain Is Beginning To Hurt Again But At Least I Understand It.

This is what it takes to be a Gemini… and it ain‘t easy neither.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm a Cancer - - -I was born to mess with a Geini's head! LOL! :lol:
My wife was a Cancer..... :roll:
So THAT explains why I'm divorced now! :shock:

[GTvtx]

the scienticic term is 'procession'

it has to do with gyroscopic forces.

Here is a understandable explanation from a reliable web source:


This only happens, by the way, above a certain speed. If you are
going slow enough, the bike will turn in the direction you would expect. The reason the motorcycle behaves as you describe at speed is due to a phenomena called precession. For a thorough explanation of precession, I recommend you look it up - it is a fairly complex subject. You can observe precession with a gyroscope. I will give you a quick explanation, though. When you try to turn a rotating object, you produce a force at 90 degrees to the direction of rotation. When you push on the left handlebar and turn the front wheel of the bike to the right, you produce a force which makes the whole motorcycle lean to the left. It is the leaning to the left that turns the bike.



GT

[yergi]

Cary,

1. What, no more plane pics??

2. Good concise explanation.

3. Now we know why the bike leans when we push. Now, why does it turn when we lean?? I have a theory i just want to know if it is right.

[GeminiII]

.... 3. Now we know why the bike leans when we push. Now, why does it turn when we lean?? I have a theory i just want to know if it is right.
As I said in my previous post, the direction of the lean is the key to causing the bike to turn. The method of counter steering is one means of causing the bike to lean. Counter steering is the quicker and more efficient method of causing the bike to lean and the result is the turning of the bike. This is why counter steering is taught as the preferred method of swerving to avoid an obstacle in the road. Turning a bike by using your body weight called “body steering” may (???) make the bike lean but to a much lesser degree. This is the less preferred method to lean and thus turn and steer the bike. Body steering is a much less effective method of steering as compared to counter steering. Never rely on just body steering to get yourself out of a real jam in a hurry.

A great read is about Keith Code’s “No B.S. Bike” he built…

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safet ... bsbike.htm (http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm)

Thanks GT for the proper name of the Gyroscope effect… I’ll read up on precession.

[yergi]

.... 3. Now we know why the bike leans when we push. Now, why does it turn when we lean?? I have a theory i just want to know if it is right.
As I said in my previous post, the direction of the lean is the key to causing the bike to turn. The method of counter steering is one means of causing the bike to lean. Counter steering is the quicker and more efficient method of causing the bike to lean and the result is the turning of the bike. This is why counter steering is taught as the preferred method of swerving to avoid an obstacle in the road. Turning a bike by using your body weight called “body steering” may (???) make the bike lean but to a much lesser degree. This is the less preferred method to lean and thus turn and steer the bike. Body steering is a much less effective method of steering as compared to counter steering. Never rely on just body steering to get yourself out of a real jam in a hurry.

A great read is about Keith Code’s “No B.S. Bike” he built…

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safet ... bsbike.htm (http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm)

Thanks GT for the proper name of the Gyroscope effect… I’ll read up on precession.

So back to my question #3. I guess what i ment to ask was. Please explain "Thus" from the above scenario.

[EricR]

It boggled my mind when I finally realized when I counter steer, (push right) my front wheel is turned left (if ever so slightly) but I’m going right. Most people would simply say “impossible” even though they have done it themselves when riding a bicycle over 12 MPH. One way of looking at this “what I call phenomenon” is by pushing the steering bar in the opposite direction (counter steer) you’re actually throwing the bike off balance and are causing it to “lean” in the direction you want it to go. The direction of the lean is the key and the counter steer is what initiated the lean. The Gyroscopic effect becomes involved and the bike is actually trying to keep itself from falling over due to it being thrown off-balance. This is what causes the turn in the direction you want to go.

Now, My Brain Is Beginning To Hurt Again But At Least I Understand It.

This is what it takes to be a Gemini… and it ain‘t easy neither.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'm a Cancer - - -I was born to mess with a Geini's head! LOL! :lol:
My wife was a Cancer..... :roll:
So THAT explains why I'm divorced now! :shock:


That's clearer than I typed Gemini. I think LJ likes to mess with anyone he can btw :wink:

The counter steer does lean the bike by off balancing it and For Yergi, leaning or shifting enough weight does the same thing but it's not as effective on a bike as big as an X. With my forwards and leaned back on my back rest I can barely lean my bike because I'm too planted in the seat.

Think back to when you rode a bicycle. Did you ever learn to ride a 10 speed, no hands, and ride for blocks going through turns with out touching the bars? I did it all the time, thought it was amazing :D I was just counter steering by shifting my weight instead of with the handle bars. It's a whole lot easier on something that weighs 40lbs as opposed to 700lbs though!

It's a lot quicker and more precise to push the bars to counter steer.

[GeminiII]

So back to my question #3. I guess what i ment to ask was. Please explain "Thus" from the above scenario.
So your question is simply…
Why does a leaning bike turn towards the lean?

The simple answer would be…
It’s God’s helping hand to keep you from falling over.

I’ll need some more sleep before I attempt a better answer.

I could just say… I don’t know, but a Gemini is not that easily defeated!

[EricR]

I misunderstood Yergis' question I guess...thought you were asking about steering by shifting your weight. :oops: Now that I think about why the bike actually "turns" I guess another simple answer is it is actually "falling" through the turn, yet staying on it's tires from the procession forces Cary has us all trying to find and read up on.

I'm simple, if I can make it work I ain't got to understand it completely!! :D

[GTvtx]

1. What, no more plane pics??


Yergi

I dropped the plane pics and my complete name because it exposes us to undesirable searches into our personal lives.

I know we are all friends here, but

everyone should try a google search on their name and see what the world has at the pleasure of their keyboard.

I adjusted my yahoo profile also.

I certainly don't mind discussing airplanes. They are as much fun to fly as a m/c is to ride.

Being the mayor of a small town, often puts our names in various newspaper articles. Most of which enters the press is in error or out of context.

cary

[littleJohnnyfromNJ]

1. What, no more plane pics??


Yergi

I dropped the plane pics and my complete name because it exposes us to undesirable searches into our personal lives.

I know we are all friends here, but

everyone should try a google search on their name and see what the world has at the pleasure of their keyboard.

I adjusted my yahoo profile also.

I certainly don't mind discussing airplanes. They are as much fun to fly as a m/c is to ride.

Being the mayor of a small town, often puts our names in various newspaper articles. Most of which enters the press is in error or out of context.

cary

are you the Mayor???

[GTvtx]

LJ


That would be "His Honor the Mayor" to you

GT