What Octane Gas in the VTX? By Tapper

[Chicago-Spike]

What octane Gas should I use?
How to “Get Gas” without leaving skidmarks

by: Brian "Tapper" Davis

One of the most frequently misunderstood issues among the VTX community, and indeed among all folks concerned with performance and appropriate care and feeding of their motors is the subject of gasoline, and more specifically the mysterious octane number. Oil companies have gone a long way to foster this mystery, by marketing gasoline with higher octane numbers as “premium”, and inferring that the golden road to more performance, cleaner widgets, and hot chicks, is to spend the extra dough on the higher-octane stuff. Well, sorry to be the one to break this to you, but you’ve been had. So lets take a quick look at octane, and then get to the big point – what should you run in your VTX?

Now the truth is, octane is actually a chemical, which comprises an important part of the chemical soup that is gasoline. But here’s the thing – octane the chemical has absolutely nothing to do, with “octane” the pump measurement. So what is it?

In a nutshell, the octane rating of a fuel is a measure of its ability to resist detonation, ping, pre-ignition, or knock. The number we most often associate with octane is the "Anti-Knock Index", or the "Pump Octane" number. This rating is an average of two different measurements - the Motor Octane Number, and the Research Octane Number. Both of these measurements are taken using a special single cylinder test engine that has a variable compression ratio. The RON measures the knock resistance of a fuel during low RPM, light load conditions, while the MON is representative of high-speed, high load operation. As a result the MON will always be lower than the RON, but for our purposes the Research Octane Number is more significant because it more closely represents the way a low rpm V-twin motor is operated. So “Octane”, has absolutely nothing to do with the energy content or quality of gasoline. It’s just a measurement of when the gas will make a motor of a specific configuration begin to knock.

Lets take a moment here to define a couple of things important to understanding this discussion.

Knocking (also called pinking or pinging) in internal combustion engines occurs when fuel in the cylinder is ignited by the firing of the spark plug but burns too quickly, combusting completely before the optimum moment during the compression phase of the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shockwave collides with the rising piston, creating a characteristic metallic "pinging" sound. The fuel is normally ignited slightly before the point of maximum compression (the spark advance) to allow a small time for the flame front of the burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture, so that maximum pressure occurs at the point of maximum compression. It is only when this flame front arrives too early, for whatever reason, that the knocking effect occurs. If allowed to persist, knocking can cause vibration and damage to engine parts.

Knocking is a different phenomenon from pre-ignition, which occurs when the air-fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is caused by heat buildup in engine components or overheating of the air-fuel mixture during compression, and cannot be prevented by delaying spark plug firing. As such, if pre-ignition is allowed to continue for any length of time, severe engine damage can result. Pre-ignition is bad bad stuff, and changing the octane of the gas won’t affect it.

Generally speaking, a higher-octane gasoline prevents knocking by either slowing the burn rate of the gas, or by increasing the difficulty of lighting it up. The idea here is to prevent the gas from burning too fast, and causing knocking. So the octane number has no bearing on the quality of the gas. But it does have a bearing, on how well your motor can utilize the gas and extract the maximum energy from it. However, getting too far into details of this would require a pretty damn big article, so I’m going to generalize a bit, for the sake of brevity here.

First, consider that gas burns faster under pressure. The more pressure, the faster it burns. Therefore, a high compression motor will burn gas faster than a low compression motor. The VTX is a relatively low compression motor folks. So, we don’t really want a slow burning gas.

Second, the burn timing in your motor is hugely important when considering how well the motor can develop power from a given amount of gas, and this timing is determined by the ECU, which can manipulate the spark advance of your engine. Normally, the timing in your VTX is pretty close to 8 degrees before top dead center, but the ECU can and does retard or advance the spark timing to respond to certain running conditions of the motor, like coolant temperature, rate of increase of Rpm’s, or any of a number of other conditions. But none of these parameters are accessible (yet) by you, the itinerant tuner. So, you have no way to manipulate the spark to match the burn speed of your gas. Since the VTX is designed by the factory to use 87 octane gas, if you run something different, the only possible way you have to tune your motor to use a different octane, is to manipulate the compression ratio of your pistons.

So here’s the thing: Unless you have changed the pistons in your VTX, a higher octane gas will have the effect of de-tuning the motor, and therefore reduce its performance. Now, the amount will probably be minimal, but it’s there. That’s the meat and potatoes guys, but there are a few more things we can infer. First, at higher altitude your compression will be slightly lower, and therefore you can get away with running a slightly lower octane gas. In fact, in areas like Denver, where the altitude is up around 5,000 feet, you’ll find gas stations selling 85 octane gas. But you’ll never find a gas station in Texas selling 85 octane. Since the altitude is much lower, the octane rating needs to be a little higher, so regular gas is typically 87 octane.

Second, gasoline quality is dependant on a lot of things, but octane isn’t one of them. In fact, there is almost no real difference in “premium gas” other than the octane number. Federal law dictates the amount and type of most of the additives in gas. So by definition, they’re all pretty similar in nature.

Except.

Gasoline is formulated according to climate in the US, and gasoline refiners use 6 basic formulations based on the expected temperature in the area they are expected to be sold in. Gas companies vary this by season, and by location (it also tends to be colder in Denver than in Dallas). So that gas you bought in Dallas might not give you great performance in Denver.

These days, unleaded oxygenated gas is far superior in performance and energy characteristics as compared to the old leaded gas of yesteryear. We generally have very good gasoline available to us at the pump.

Lastly, just remember this simple rule of thumb: You should always use the octane rating recommended by the manufacturer for your motor. But, if you are riding in a climate significantly different than sea-level at 80 degrees Fahrenheit, then use the lowest octane gas you can find that will not cause your motor to knock.

One more thing – many cars these days have anti-knock sensors built into them (the VTX doesn’t), and those sensors are used by the ECU to manipulate the spark timing. So, if you run an octane significantly different from the manufacturers recommended octane number, the ECU will detune the motor in real time, and you won’t get any knocking – but you absolutely will lose performance. Use the recommended gas. If you’ve been running a higher octane gas, and spending the dough to do it, then I hope this little article will save you some bucks, and in the process gain you some performance. Good luck!
Last update: 2005-06-22 15:43
Author: Tapper

[elwray]

Got some people I have to forward this post on to :mrgreen:, thanks!

[iceman5218]

I am in no way questioning your knowledge but I do have a question. When I switched over from 87 to 91 or 93 (never use ethonol again) I did notice that the bike ran harder. The throttle response was better, accerlation seemed to be better, and would start and run better. Again not questioning you just wanting to know why.

[Chicago-Spike]

I am in no way questioning your knowledge but I do have a question. When I switched over from 87 to 91 or 93 (never use ethonol again) I did notice that the bike ran harder. The throttle response was better, accerlation seemed to be better, and would start and run better. Again not questioning you just wanting to know why.
Could be your carb was dirty and the premium cleaned it out. Premium does have more detergents in it, but that can be solved by running a bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner through the bike once a year. As the article states, premium will not make more power(unless an ECU has the ability to adjust timing and a/f to utilize the higher octane ) in the VTX.

[senor-mouse]

Great article. Thanks for posting. Honda's owners manual says use regular gas. This manufacturer's recommendation comes from brainiac engineers with graduate degrees earning fat 6-figure salaries.
Good enough for me LOL.

[Trackman]

Good article Spike.

I had always believed higher octane gas was more powerful gas. Just common knowledge, right?. Everyone knows it.
But after seeing enough knowledgeable people in this forum claiming otherwise.
I checked it out. Wikipedia is a good source.

I have always run 91 octane.
So this summer I ran 87. My riding buddies still think I'm nuts.
What I found was as follows.

Power - hard to tell any difference by seat of pants dyno.

Gas mileage - has dropped slighly. This is a hard thing to judge
as one does not always ride the same road or the same speed.
But over the summer I never hit the highest mileages I got the summer before using 91 octane. On trips where I rode very easy (steady 55mph)
I went about 6 to 10 miles less on a tank from what I had experienced on 91 octane. The more aggressive I rode the smaller the difference became.

Spark Plugs - Without a doubt burned cleaner with 87 octance.
My plugs were souted from burning 91. They cleaned up from using 87.
I could also see the tips of my cobra pipes were not as dark.
This means my engine is burning cleaner and a cleaner running
engine is a longer lasting engine.

I have gotten a lot of good advice in this forum.
But if I had to choose what was the best advice
I would say it was to use 87 octane instead of the 91.

[bigsmoke]

Great article. Thanks for posting. Honda's owners manual says use regular gas. This manufacturer's recommendation comes from brainiac engineers with graduate degrees earning fat 6-figure salaries.
Good enough for me LOL.

On the contrary, the manuel says to use 86 or better. The lowest at the pump is 87.

As far as octane goes, I have noticed that when I do choose to run 89, the scoot does run better, and that's not just once a year. I the higher octanes have more detergent, then wouldn't that mean that the carb remains fairly clean, thus more power, quicker reaction, and better acceleration. I'm no engineer, but if you feed one guy fruits, veggies, and all that good stuff, and the other donuts, candy and red meat, I would believe that that latter would conk out first. JMHO

[Chicago-Spike]

All fuel grades have detergents in them now. If you want you can always run a bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner through th ebike once or twice a year

[triductran]

On the contrary, the manuel says to use 86 or better. The lowest at the pump is 87.

As far as octane goes, I have noticed that when I do choose to run 89, the scoot does run better, and that's not just once a year. I the higher octanes have more detergent, then wouldn't that mean that the carb remains fairly clean, thus more power, quicker reaction, and better acceleration. I'm no engineer, but if you feed one guy fruits, veggies, and all that good stuff, and the other donuts, candy and red meat, I would believe that that latter would conk out first. JMHO

Same as my line of thought but I use Super Unleaded. I'm not an expert nor have I run an independent experiment like Trackman. I'm in this thread to learn. One thing I found inconsistent is that Trackman said

"Spark Plugs - Without a doubt burned cleaner with 87 octance.
My plugs were souted from burning 91. They cleaned up from using 87.
I could also see the tips of my cobra pipes were not as dark.
This means my engine is burning cleaner and a cleaner running
engine is a longer lasting engine."

But from other postings and from what I understand, higher octane burns cleaner because of higher cleaning agent.:dontknow: Am I not understanding this?

[Chicago-Spike]

Higher octane does not always have more detergents. Only SOME do like Shell. ALL fuel grades have detergents in them. Use a bottle of Techron, recommended by Honda and many other vehicle manufacturers, once a year. Fact is, higher octane will NOT make this bike run better. In order for a car to use it to it's advantage it must have an ECU that will be able to retard the spark in order to burn the fuel in the combustion chambers completely. The VTX ECU does NOT adjust this and you will leave unburnt fuel in the combustion chambers resulting in fouled plugs,poor mileage and less power. This is not conjecture, just use Google to search "What fuel octane should be used" and you'll get many fact based articles from all over
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+fuel+octane+should+be+used&aq=f&oq=

[triductran]

Higher octane does not always have more detergents. Only SOME do like Shell. ALL fuel grades have detergents in them. Use a bottle of Techron, recommended by Honda and many other vehicle manufacturers, once a year. Fact is, higher octane will NOT make this bike run better. In order for a car to use it to it's advantage it must have an ECU that will be able to retard the spark in order to burn the fuel in the combustion chambers completely. The VTX ECU does NOT adjust this and you will leave unburnt fuel in the combustion chambers resulting in fouled plugs,poor mileage and less power. This is not conjecture, just use Google to search "What fuel octane should be used" and you'll get many fact based articles from all over
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+fuel+octane+should+be+used&aq=f&oq=

Thanks Spike,
I'll use regular unleaded gas from now on and use the cleaner once or twice a year.

[Theandersen]

Like many people, I always assumed higher numbers (both octane and price) were better. :thumbup:

[richard head]

higher octane ,slower burn .You will get the most power out of your motor with the lowest octane you can burn ,with no detonation.High compression motors burn premium to slow the burn .motors 101

[a14victory]

yeah, 87, the cheap stuff.
I have worked with gasoline all my life. I installed removed and remediated underground storage tanks for gas stations. I did all of there testing and found the same thing in all the stations that you go to is that the gas all comes from the same place. They all have their own additives when the truck comes to pick up the gas. One thing is for sure though, Shell gas burns like hell when you get some on you. I was soaked in it one day and I went screaming for momma.
Wintertime, they load up the gas with propane to boost octane. Texaco has a slant on things though, I use to have to pump water out of some of the tanks around town during winter and spring. I never touched Texacos gas. Wierd at the time, later I found out they use dryers in there fuel in the winter time. Mystery solved.

Board is awesome!

[Mark Portland]

I am new to this forum, but already have found a ton of information. This one how ever tops it thus far.

Thanks!

[drode]

20-some years ago I asked my father why he always used 86 or 87 octane gas. I figured premium or "high test" gas was better and he was just being cheap.

He told me higher octane gas provides less power and worse gas mileage unless the engine is specifically designed for high octane. He gave me one simple rule, "Use the lowest octane that does not cause pinging."

Pretty smart for a guy that never finished high school :)

[mark_1bx]

Could be your carb was dirty and the premium cleaned it out. Premium does have more detergents in it, but that can be solved by running a bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner through the bike once a year. As the article states, premium will not make more power(unless an ECU has the ability to adjust timing and a/f to utilize the higher octane ) in the VTX.


Not true
http://www.epinions.com/content_2346164356
But I Want to Keep My Engine Clean!

The higher AKI of premium gasoline does not in itself make it any cleaner than regular gas. Oil companies, however, like to advertise that their premium fuels are ‘specially formulated” to clean fuel injectors, restore lost power, and, hey, maybe even improve your sex life. But the truth of the matter is that any “cleaners” that could be added to gasoline itself are probably not going to be present in sufficient quantities to do much good.

[Chicago-Spike]

All fuel grades have detergents in them now. If you want you can always run a bottle of Techron Fuel System cleaner through th ebike once or twice a year
___

[TSmith3480]

Fantastic information. Thanks!

[JimJewel]

I put 87 octane in my bike today for the first time ever based on this post. I'll let you know if I notice anything different as a result...

[bills]

As with anything else,everyone has an opinion.I always use premium and always will in my bike.On the other hand when gas prices spiked I tried to save some money by using a lower grade in my car and the results were lower gas millage.If premium gas makes your engine run cleaner and get better gas millage, I will pay the extra buck now rather than hundreds later ............

[Chicago-Spike]

As with anything else,everyone has an opinion.I always use premium and always will in my bike.On the other hand when gas prices spiked I tried to save some money by using a lower grade in my car and the results were lower gas millage.If premium gas makes your engine run cleaner and get better gas millage, I will pay the extra buck now rather than hundreds later ............
That is the point, Premium DOES NOT make the engine run any cleaner or get you better gas mileage on a bike. The ECU must be able to adjust the timing curve to take full benefit from premium fuel. The bikes ECU does not adjust the timing therefore the VTX runs worse, gets less fuel mileage and will actually foul the plugs if you run premium. All those things you listed are complete myths and they are futhured by the gas companies to have people spend more money. In your car, go ahead and run premium. The VTX that does not have an ECU that will adjust the timing, run regular. Been tested here before, regular makes the VTX run better and get better mileage

[WV-Neo]

Just have to put my .02 in. Higher octane does not have more power, Like stated before. All octane does is control detonation and preignition. The low compression of our engines do not need anything higher than 87. I come from a racing background. We run stuff 13:1 and up. We run 110 to 120 octane. The main factor in the fuel we run is compression. We run racing fuel. This is what the maker of our fuel says on their web site about octane.
FOUR FUEL PROPERTIES
Listed below are the four basic qualities of fuels. As in everything, there are trade-offs. You can't make a racing fuel that has the best of everything, but you can produce one that will give your engine the most power. This is why VP produces different fuels for different applications. The key to getting the best racing gasoline is not necessarily buying the fuel with the highest octane, but getting one that is best suited for your engine.

1. OCTANE: This does nothing more than rate a fuel's ability to resist detonation and/or preignition. Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers, (RON); Motor Octane Numbers, (MON); and Pump Octane Numbers (R+M/2). Pump Octane Numbers are what you see on the yellow decal at gas stations, representing the average of the fuel's MON and RON. VP uses MON because this test method more accurately simulates racing conditions. The conditions under which fuels are tested using the RON method are not as demanding, thus the number is normally higher than the MON rating. This leads many other fuel companies to rate their fuels using the RON in an effort to make them appear more resistant to detonation. Don't be fooled by high RON numbers or an average -- MONs are the most relevant ratings for a racing application. Be aware, however, the ability of fuel to resist detonation is a function of more than just octane.

2. BURNING SPEED: This is the speed at which fuel releases its energy. At high RPMs, there is very little time (real time - not crank rotation) for fuel to release its energy. Peak cylinder pressure should occur around 20° ATDC. If the fuel is still burning after this, it is not contributing to peak cylinder pressure (which is what the rear wheels see).

3. ENERGY VALUE: An expression of the potential energy in the fuel. The energy value is measured in BTUs per pound, not per gallon. The difference is important. The air:fuel ratio is expressed in weight, not volume. Generally speaking, VP's fuels measure high BTUs per pound and thus, have a higher energy value. This higher energy value will have a positive impact on horsepower at any compression ratio or engine speed.

4. COOLING EFFECT: The cooling effect on fuel is related to the heat of vaporization. The higher a fuel's heat of vaporization, the better its ability to cool the intake mixture. A better cooling effect can generate some horsepower gains in 4-stroke engines, and even bigger gains in 2-stroke engines. They want to sell you the fuel that is going to perform the best for you. So when they say higher octane isn't always the best choice i tend to believe them.

[Juantonamo]

Chicago-Spike, i am new to this forum but have spent a good deal of time reading this thread string. I just wanted to say thanks for taking time to not only post this info but to answer all the questions. It really helps the less educated public, like myself, learn and enjoy our bikes.

[BenThere2]

I'm no mechanic or engineer, but I understand plain English pretty well. I have been misled my whole life about octane ratings and the quality of gas, and I even used to deliver gas years ago, anyone remember Sunoco 260?
I am immediately switching over to 85, which is regular around here, since we're just slightly lower than Denver at 4,700 feet. I look forward to seeing what difference it makes, other than less money. Thanks so much for all the information in this thread, it has been mind-expanding.
:thumbup:

[Voimakas]

I have a friend of mine who rides a carbed, 1100cc, 10.5:1 compression 'cycle and he runs a tank of leaded 112 through his motorcycle once every two months (roughly). Any thoughts on this?

[Chicago-Spike]

I have a friend of mine who rides a carbed, 1100cc, 10.5:1 compression 'cycle and he runs a tank of leaded 112 through his motorcycle once every two months (roughly). Any thoughts on this?
For your bike? Never use anything above pump gas ever. When guys have run high octane from the pump in their VTX, they foul the plugs, get worse mileage and their power is down. Octane rating has nothing to do with the power output of the bike.

[bigsmoke]

Found out yesterday that the gas here in Houston is hell on carbs. We have 10% Ethanol in the gas here and was told by one dealer that Honda does not warranty the carbs malfunction due to the gas here, and was show how the gas here turns the carbs green over time. i wonder in this case would a higher octane help this issue.

[elwray]

Found out yesterday that the gas here in Houston is hell on carbs. We have 10% Ethanol in the gas here and was told by one dealer that Honda does not warranty the carbs malfunction due to the gas here, and was show how the gas here turns the carbs green over time. i wonder in this case would a higher octane help this issue.
I find that hard to believe. Especially since the E10 is mandated by law in most locations. The issues you'll run into with the ethanol would be phase separation if you get water into the tank. Higher octane will not combat the effects of ethanol. Ethanol will not affect performance, but it will reduce your mileage due to less energy in a volume of ethanol than gasoline.

[Chicago-Spike]

Found out yesterday that the gas here in Houston is hell on carbs. We have 10% Ethanol in the gas here and was told by one dealer that Honda does not warranty the carbs malfunction due to the gas here, and was show how the gas here turns the carbs green over time. i wonder in this case would a higher octane help this issue.
Complete and utter BS line by that dealer! In Illinois and the surrounding corn states, 10% ethanol is ALL we can buy and has been this way for over 20 years. If what your dealer said was true, we would have no working vehicles up here. Ethanol actually burns cleaner than straight gas and cleans out your carbs and injectors. You only have trouble if you leave the ethanol sitting in th ebike for long periods of time(over a month ) without adding a fuel stabilizer like Seafoam.

[bigsmoke]

Complete and utter BS line by that dealer! In Illinois and the surrounding corn states, 10% ethanol is ALL we can buy and has been this way for over 20 years. If what your dealer said was true, we would have no working vehicles up here. Ethanol actually burns cleaner than straight gas and cleans out your carbs and injectors. You only have trouble if you leave the ethanol sitting in th ebike for long periods of time(over a month ) without adding a fuel stabilizer like Seafoam.

Now I was told never to put any kind of additive in the bike. I asked the guy about Seafoam and he didn't have a clue of what I was talking about

[Chicago-Spike]

Now I was told never to put any kind of additive in the bike. I asked the guy about Seafoam and he didn't have a clue of what I was talking about
You only need to add Seafoam, if you are going to park your bike and leave it for over a month at a time. That doesn't suprise me that the dealer never heard of this when you are in Texas. You can pretty much ride all year and never store it. But up here in Illinois, we store bikes for the winter, when fuel will be sitting unused for 3 or more months, this is when we add a stabilizer to the tank right before we put the bike on a stand and cover it up for the winter 8)

[BenThere2]

Well, I just rode out 2 tanks of 85 octane gas, which is regular in this area. I can't give you any technical data, but my bike feels more responsive and seems to have more power. I'll give it a few more weeks, then pull the plugs and see what they look like, but so far I'm impressed.

[dj48]

Okay, i officially have a headache now....:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
But i will use 87 octane!!!:doorag:

[mark_1bx]

You only need to add Seafoam, if you are going to park your bike and leave it for over a month at a time. That doesn't suprise me that the dealer never heard of this when you are in Texas. You can pretty much ride all year and never store it. But up here in Illinois, we store bikes for the winter, when fuel will be sitting unused for 3 or more months, this is when we add a stabilizer to the tank right before we put the bike on a stand and cover it up for the winter 8)


Spike, we've had this discussion before. If your going to moderate the board please at least pass proper information.

http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechGas.htm

SEA FOAM MOTOR TREATMENT for Gas Engine Applications

100% Pure Petroleum
Use in All Engines in All Seasons
2 Cycle, 4 Cycle, and Diesels
Treats 3 Critical Areas: Gas Tank, Fuel Systems, and Crankcase

Cleans fuel injectors
Cleans carburetor jets
Cleans carbon
Stabilizes fuels
Upper cylinder lube
Removes moisture in fuel
De-icer<LI class=plain>Frees sticky lifters <LI class=plain>Frees sticky rings <LI class=plain>Removes moisture in oil <LI class=plain>Cleans P.C.V. systems <LI class=plain>Cleans catalytic converter odors
Oxygen sensor safe
http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/updates_whitecap.gif
How Many Mechanics Use SEA FOAM In Tune-Up of 4 Cycle Gasoline Carbureted or Fuel Injected Engines
Autos, Trucks, and Tractors
<LI class=plain>With engine warm, slowly pour 1/3 to 1/2 pint through carburetor or throttle body throat. (If vehicle is port injected slowly pour SEA FOAM through direct manifold vacuum line that will feed all cylinders, possible sources are P.C.V. valve or brake booster line.) This will pull SEA FOAM down on top of the pistons and to the back of the intake valves to dissolve carbon. Turn ignition off. Restart engine after 5 minutes. If severe carbon build up is apparent, use more Sea Foam as previously directed. Make sure exhaust is well ventilated when using Sea Foam in these various ways as fumes will be extreme for a short time. <LI class=plain>Pour 1/3 to 1/2 pint into oil crank case to clean rings, lifters, dirty parts and remove moisture. <LI class=plain>Pour 1/3 to 1 full pint into fuel tank to clean injectors, carburetor jets, fuel lines and remove moisture.
Immediate Results: Smoother idle, increased R.P.M.'s better throttle response and improved performance. See label on can for detailed results for use in each area.
FUEL TANK, CARBURETOR, INJECTION and OIL CRANKCASE.
For Peak Performance, Use SEA FOAM Every 2,000 to 5,000 Miles


A 100% pure petroleum product for use in all gasoline and diesel type engines, both 2 and 4 cycle. OXYGEN SENSOR SAFE.
Cleans dirty engine parts internally by removing harmful gums, varnish and carbon. WORKS AND PERFORMS INSTANTLY.
Removes moisture from oil crankcases and fuel tanks.
Stabilizes and conditions fuels. Use for engine storage.
Cure hesitations, stalls, pings and rough idle due to carbon buildup.
Helps pass emissions test. EPA Registered.
When Used Thru Injection or Carburetor


Cleans carbon build up
Cleans intake valves and pistons
Gives smoother idle
Cleans catalytic converter odors
Cures hesitations and pings
Restores power and pickup
With warm engine running, SLOWLY pour 1/2 pint through carburator, throttle body or direct manifold vacuum line that will feed ALL CYLINDERS. Possible sources are P.C.V. valve or brake booster line. Turn ignition off. Restart engine after 5 minutes. Be sure exhaust is well ventilated. Fumes will be extreme for a short period of time.
For use in injector cleaning machines, use 50% SEA FOAM and 50% fuel.
Fill diesel filters with SEA FOAM to clean injectors fast.

[Chicago-Spike]

Mark, what did I say that was wrong? The poster and I were talking about STORING a bike or having it SIT UNUSED for a while. That is why I said he only needs to add for THAT reason. We were not talking about cleaning out the fuel system, just stabilizing the fuel 8)

[mark_1bx]

You only need to add Seafoam, if you are going to park your bike and leave it for over a month at a time.

Sorry I guess my comment did come off as being critical. I was trying to say that Seafoam and some of the other products that you've mentioned in the past are used for storing and everyday use to keep the fuel systems clean.

Now as for Stabil (sp), I know we've all have been using it since god made dirt but I've have to say though I don't think it works. I've been told my many auto and MC mechanics NOT to use Stabil because it has a tendency to gum up the works. Just an example...the Goldwing I used to own..I use Stabil religiously.......I religiously replaced the fuel and air filters...oil etc. I started to have trouble with the carbs so I brought the bike to Honda and they disassembled my carbs and showed me the red crud in my carbs. I've had the same experience with my chain saws.

in Illinois, we store bikes for the winter, when fuel will be sitting unused for 3 or more months, this is when we add a stabilizer to the tank right before we put the bike on a stand and cover it up for the winter http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

[Chicago-Spike]

I know, but we were only talking about storeage use here, not cleaning the system ;)
I use Seafoam to clean my small engines out. I use Techron to clean my cars/trucks and bikes out

[19COBRA93]

I run 85 (Utah) in mine and it runs a lot better than when I have run 91. With 91 my bike tends to surge a bit, and just in general doesn't run as good.

[ninjaeater]

Yep reason number 101 Listen to your Dad. I told my boys the same thing more then once. Running a turbo on my other bike it is easy to explain the need for high octane in the turbo and low in the VTX.

20-some years ago I asked my father why he always used 86 or 87 octane gas. I figured premium or "high test" gas was better and he was just being cheap.

He told me higher octane gas provides less power and worse gas mileage unless the engine is specifically designed for high octane. He gave me one simple rule, "Use the lowest octane that does not cause pinging."

Pretty smart for a guy that never finished high school :)

[Fred Owings]

I read and followed your technical info with photo's for correcting the ground problems. When I read you description of the symptoms I said he has been riding my 02 VTX 1800c. Last night I took the gas tank off and did all the steps in your article. I had already done the battery thing and my bike has the "correct" system ground bottom of engine near oil filter.
I installed a set of 03 heat range plugs due to all the info that says 02's had too low heat range plugs. I also bought 4 gal. of premium and poured it in the bike last night after reinstalling the gas tank. When it warms up this afternoon I am going to take it out and hopefully my problem will be fixed!
Thanks for the article which I printed out and used at the bench with photo's and all.
I will let you know if all is well after the test ride.
My name is Fred Owings by the way and I am gald to meet you.

fastfreddie:doorag:

fastfreddie:doorag:

[Chicago-Spike]

I read and followed your technical info with photo's for correcting the ground problems. When I read you description of the symptoms I said he has been riding my 02 VTX 1800c. Last night I took the gas tank off and did all the steps in your article. I had already done the battery thing and my bike has the "correct" system ground bottom of engine near oil filter.
I installed a set of 03 heat range plugs due to all the info that says 02's had too low heat range plugs. I also bought 4 gal. of premium and poured it in the bike last night after reinstalling the gas tank. When it warms up this afternoon I am going to take it out and hopefully my problem will be fixed!
Thanks for the article which I printed out and used at the bench with photo's and all.
I will let you know if all is well after the test ride.
My name is Fred Owings by the way and I am gald to meet you.

fastfreddie:doorag:

fastfreddie:doorag:
Using premium will not fix the problem. You must have read the article wrong. Premium is NOT needed in the VTX. Using it only makes the oil companies happy and your VTX will run worse and get worse fuel mileage. It also will foul the plugs

[YouEnjoyMyself]

SEARCH ENGINE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?:dontknow::dontkn ow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontkn ow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow::dontknow:



:agree::agree::agree::agree:

[versaceandharley]

I have been riding for just over 2 years now and have known very little about gasoline and it's workings/effects on my bikes. Thank you for starting this thread! It has been a very good asset in learning how to be a better, and more efficient, rider.

[Velyn]

I found that in Tucson at an elevation of 3500ft and 100+ degree days my bike would ping when useing regular gas under hard accerlation.

I started useing mid-grade on hot days and the bike ran much better.

So I dont think that there is a hard and fast set of rules here, but I will agree that most of the time higher grades of gas and gas additives is just pouring money down the drain.

[gietsach]

Hello,

I'm new to this board and found this thread to be very informative. Not only is there opposing argument from both sides but the fact that there are readers who actually test the argument makes it worth it.

Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge and experience!

[sIRCuit]

Thanks for sharing all the valuable information. Gotta love the way bikers share!

[1BADXRider]

This is great information! I guess I didn't really know what the effect of octane rating on a motor was. I just got my X after selling my TRX450R wich was a premium gas burning race machine. It didn't like to run on anthing less than 91 so I figured "more" was better when it came to octane. I now realize that was because it was a high compression race motor which, as much as I want it to be, my VTX is not. I will stop running "premium" (which after only 1500 miles of running only 94 has left black deposits on my plugs) and start running good old regular pump gas that runs my X just fine.

[Redefyn]

I should have checked this thread out when I first joined! I have been running 91 octane in my X. It's performed fantastic, but I will not be running anymore of it. If Honda's engineers say regular, that's all I need.

I gotta say, Chicago-Spike, I always find your posts informative, and want to say thanks for the info you share :thumbup:

[PapaBear765]

What octane Gas should I use?
How to “Get Gas” without leaving skidmarks

by: Brian "Tapper" Davis

One of the most frequently misunderstood issues among the VTX community, and indeed among all folks concerned with performance and appropriate care and feeding of their motors is the subject of gasoline, and more specifically the mysterious octane number. Oil companies have gone a long way to foster this mystery, by marketing gasoline with higher octane numbers as “premium”, and inferring that the golden road to more performance, cleaner widgets, and hot chicks, is to spend the extra dough on the higher-octane stuff. Well, sorry to be the one to break this to you, but you’ve been had. So lets take a quick look at octane, and then get to the big point – what should you run in your VTX?
...
Author: Tapper:joke:

I have to vehemently contest your statements, Mr. Know-It-All. I bought my bike in June 2005 and put a good 2500 miles on it in two months time. This included cruising the late night downtown Portsmouth, NH, scene at least every other night...all in vain while ignorantly running Regular 86 or 87 octane. Not once was me and my ride impressive enough of a mating call to the opposite sex.

Come August I fill up on Premium. That very night during what would have been my final attempt at copulation had failure crossed my path rather than success, a voluptuous blonde native waved me down and no sooner had my feet touched the pavement as I brought my perfect marriage of Japanese engineering and American gasoline refinement to a halt she was on my passenger seat telling me to take her for a ride.

And did I. The rest of the story is for a different flavor of forum. Suffice it to say, Chicago-Mike's myth is busted!

:grin:

[transam1978]

The reason she was able to wave you down was because your bike was under performing with the premium fuel. :firstplace:With regular you would have blown right on by before she could wave. In your instance I would say that the premium worked to get the driver in a premium situation.:yikes: Now the driver has to consume Red Bull :mrgreen: to keep up with the passenger demands. But you can now go back to regular on the bike and have the passenger hold on tighter to you vibrating ride.:congrats:

[JMC1800S]

Purchuased my '03 1800s in '05 as a leftover, and like alot of the other posts here "nothing but the best for my bike" ran 93. Then after the bike had around 1k miles on it I went on a 250mile trip and decided to save $ and run 87. Noticed the bike was running smoother at low speeds, with no loss of power. It also seemed to run cooler, but that could just be my imgination. Since then it has only had 87 in it, and now has 9k miles on it, with no plug problems. Nice to know it was not just me that found this out.

[Dave44142]

Like many people, I always assumed higher numbers (both octane and price) were better. :thumbup:


When i was a little kid my dad told me, "Son Always buy the Expensive oil and the Cheap gas", so far i have usually done just that *smile*

[YoungVeuve]

thanks to all who contributed...love getting an education!

[VTX1800NCt]

I know that somebody here will have to put their $.02 in this BUT, before the Hi-Comp kit, my bike would run like crap, backfire etc on regular. It would run OK with midgrade. The problem was resolved when the PC3 was installed and the bike was no longer running lean (sea level etc.). I could then use regular. Now it run on premium only but...

Higher octane helps on engines running lean. In general the explanations above is perfectly correct and based on the compression ratio of the VTX and the fact that it is a twin spark design regular should be all that is needed.

[edgee]

Higher octain gives me better millage on my Linc. Navigator 2-3 miles per Gallon. But on my VTX.R, I got worse millage on higher octain. So Chicago your'e right on your statments.......OH and :agree:I think I have a headache right now :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead:

[mojo-red]

I had heard years ago the higher octane simply retards the ignition of fuel but your article is very informative adn believeable. Thankyou.

[Dedman]

I was told by my dealer to only use 89 or above. They have since gone outta business. Starting with my next fill up I will be using 87. Thanks for all the good information.


Dedman

[Ghost-Flame]

In my 1800 I have tried all 3 grades 87, 89, 91. the 87 caused decel popping and rough idle and low mileage. The 89 was just right no decel pop, no rough idle, better mileage by about 5 mpg city and highway.

The 91 gave no better or worse performance than the 89.

[Chicago-Spike]

You didn't get the pop with the higher octane because there was so much left over fuel that the exhaust gasses were in an over rich condition that prevented them from igniting. That is how the decell pop is stopped with a fuel manager, by adding a lot of extra fuel to cause an over rich condition.

[djfoxsr]

:agree:
Glad i wasn't tired tonight and decided to surf this site till 3:30AM. Just got my VTX yesterday, so I have only put one tank of the wrong fuel in it. I'm not sure why I just assumed that the bike needed 93 fuel in it. I had a mechanic at the local Honda car dealership tell me that Honda will actually void your warranty for running "premium" fuel in their cars. He gave me the same reasons that have been given here. I should have remembered that after all the years of regular gas in the CRX.

Even in my Mustang I had better results with lower octane fuels,,,,,untill I would take it to the track and spray it with nitrous,,,,,then i would run a 114 octane fuel to keep from burning holes in the pistons.

The information about fouling plugs and getting worse performance on an engine without a knock sensor and auto timing adjustment is true most of the time. There are always variables. Engine mods, elevation, wear on engine, many other things can effect the octane you need. It's always best to run the lowest octane you can get away with, but I can see where it is possible that a small percentage of people on here may experience better results with a slightly higher octane rating if they are experiencing "knocking" or overheating issues.

Thank you all for your input. I have learned more in a few hours of this forum than I have learned in days of talking to my know it all friends.

[fardnarger]

Put 2 oz of Marvel mystery oil gas treatment every tank, more power, more mpg, and cleans everything out

[Greg Riddle]

I used to run 87 in mine. put k&n filter in and it started detonating. so ive been running premium. I plan on rejet after airbox mods. will probably try going back to regular after rejet. detenaion was probably caused by lean burn.

[Chicago-Spike]

Put 2 oz of Marvel mystery oil gas treatment every tank, more power, more mpg, and cleans everything out
If you like snake oil, great. But don't come out and say something like that like it's real. Marvel Mystery oil is nothing more than a carb cleaner. If your fuel system was dirty as heck before the first use, yeah you might see more mpg. After that, it doesn't gain you power or mpgs just by using it.
Just google the crap and you'll find plenty of debunking tests for that stuff. It's just kerosene and naptha and doesn;t do much of anything

[Dave44142]

If you like snake oil, great. But don't come out and say something like that like it's real. Marvel Mystery oil is nothing more than a carb cleaner. If your fuel system was dirty as heck before the first use, yeah you might see more mpg. After that, it doesn't gain you power or mpgs just by using it.
Just google the crap and you'll find plenty of debunking tests for that stuff. It's just kerosene and naptha and doesn;t do much of anything

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the past i ues the product in the Diesel engine in my truck, i was told that it would keep fuel injectors clean? not sure if it did any thing or not? but that is my only experience with the stuff.

[Ghost-Flame]

I used to use 87 it used to work great. This summer I had performance problems and decreased mileage and back firing.

It was suggested to me to try 89 octane, I did and all the problems went away.

The formulations on regular gas have changed, at least in my local area.