99 Camry 135k - fix or replace?

[nash.VTX]

OK, my turn to ask a non-MC question 8)

Hope to get some good opinions and learn from experience here


Some Facts
*99 Camry LE V6, automatic bought brand new
*Wife is the primary user (has some emotional value in it -don't ask :mad:)
*135k miles (great smooth rides until now)
*Always serviced at the same Toyota dealership
*Last major servicing was done at 90k
*Regular maintn done since then (also at same dealership)

Problem
1. The engine light came about 3 weeks back, we were told the EGR Valve needed replaced. Did that out $450 parts/labor.
2. Few days later light comes up again - couple of cylinder misfire codes, dealer says nothing wrong, resets the code, out $110 for labor.
3. Past weekend the engine light comes back on only this time there is lot of jerk/hesitation (randomly, not always). Bring in to the dealer on Mon, takes almost the entire day....now get ready...
***Need to replace Oxygen Sensor + Mass Airflow Meter + SparkPlugs. Parts+labor = $947 OUCH (we talked him into giving us 10% discount given above:rolleyes:) ***





Options?
Trade-in value (per) KBB is about $3000-$2000, spoke to the sales guy at the same dealership - they are willing to give $2400 as is trade in value. But then we will be out $300-400 pm for a new/pre-owned car
Fix at dealership? pay the $850 but what more repairs to expect? and when to cut the cord?
Find another local/small mechanic?
Fix it -> sell it for better price (gamble?) -> buy another
Anyother option? (riding a bike is not an option for the wife)
What would you do? :dontknow:

[hagarz71]

does it qualify for the "cash for clunkers" incentive program of our new administration.

[dbx]

No. 3 should be no. 1, stop using the stealer. Many of the diagnostic trouble codes can be fixed without putting new parts in, but most dealers won't bother, and the code justifies them. Codes like faulty egr can usually be fixed with a little cleaning of carbon from the egr port and/or valve, just for 1 example. Those cars are usually good for 200K plus with good maint. like it's had with you for it's life. I'd seriously consider keeping it. My local Auto Zone reads and resets diagnostic codes for free with a hand held unit. I think many AP houses offer that free service. I believe it needs to be rated under 20 mpg to qualify for Cash for Clunkers, you need to by brand new with at least a 10 mpg improvment or above 28 mpg to get the $4500 max deal, something like that, not sure on all the exact details.

[race66]

check with a camry forum - most car models have one.

You'd get better and more specific advice there.

I found the grand am gt, dodge dakota and pt cruiser forums particularly helpful.

and this forum is the best one. :thumbup:

[harisond]

Options?

Trade-in value (per) KBB is about $3000-$2000, spoke to the sales guy at the same dealership - they are willing to give $2400 as is trade in value. But then we will be out $300-400 pm for a new/pre-owned car
Fix at dealership? pay the $850 but what more repairs to expect? and when to cut the cord?
Find another local/small mechanic?
Fix it -> sell it for better price (gamble?) -> buy another
Anyother option? (riding a bike is not an option for the wife)
What would you do? :dontknow:

No option 6.? when engine light comes on go to Autozone and have them read OBDII codes for free. Then do the repairs yourself. Nothing above is very difficult and the dealer is bending you over good on price.

Dealer charged you $110 just to read misfire codes and reset light telling you nothing wrong. Then light comes back on (of course it would, if it misfires once it will do it again if you don't correct problem) and now charging you for the shotgun replacement approach. Very unlikely you actually need all those parts replaced.

So if you're not up to wrenching yourself probably time to say goodbye to this car before you sink in more money and get committed. After 10 years and 135k miles you are only approaching the bell curve on repairs, expect more to come for wear out items, struts, bushings, bearings, water pump, alternator, etc.

If you decide to start working on it yourself I can give you some tips for your current problems. Don't blindly replace all the items your dealer advised.

_

[HondaPartsGuy]

does it qualify for the "cash for clunkers" incentive program of our new administration.

No option 6.? when engine light comes on go to Autozone and have them read OBDII codes for free. Then do the repairs yourself. Nothing above is very difficult and the dealer is bending you over good on price.

Dealer charged you $110 just to read misfire codes and reset light telling you nothing wrong. Then light comes back on (of course it would, if it misfires once it will do it again if you don't correct problem) and now charging you for the shotgun replacement approach. Very unlikely you actually need all those parts replaced.

So if you're not up to wrenching yourself probably time to say goodbye to this car before you sink in more money and get committed. After 10 years and 135k miles you are only approaching the bell curve on repairs, expect more to come for wear out items, struts, bushings, bearings, water pump, alternator, etc.

If you decide to start working on it yourself I can give you some tips for your current problems. Don't blindly replace all the items your dealer advised.

_

Some very good advise there !! Cash for Clunkers should get you a $4500.00 trade in value , but I believe that is towards the purchase of a "new" car. The do-it-yourself advise should also be seriously considered.

I had a 1985 Honda Civic that i put 320,000 miles on before it started to smoke and needed rings. I now have a 1994 Honda Civic with over 220,000 miles on it and it is still in fine shape. I have done all of the necessary repairs to both vehicles myself and have probably saved a boatload of money. My point being that your Camry should be good for at least another 100k with some average repairs that you can do yourself.

If it were mine I'd fix it. Who's to say you sell it and buy another used car , only to find it needing similar repairs ?

And for the record , I work at a car dealership , STAY AWAY from their service department. If you find yourself up against a repair that you are not comfortable performing,there is bound to be a independent Toyota repair shop nearby that specializes in nothing but Toyota/Scion/Lexus repairs.

Good luck with your choice.

[4inchpistons]

My '94 has 215,000 and still running strong. Although I do virtually all the work myself. EGR only needed to be cleaned, 45 minutes max to remove, clean and reinstall. Universal oxygen sensors are less than $20 and only take 10 minutes to install. :tools:
If you don't work on it yourself, maybe it's better to buy new.

[burntx]

Find a trusted local mechanic, maybe even a Yoda mech. that works on the side to give her a look and a second opinion. If it has been that well maintained its probably good for a lot more miles once straightened out.

[bigdaddy1]

First off, I work at a Toyota dealership service dept.

I do think the dealer burned you on the service a bit. In my shop if you came back in shortly afterwards for a second check engine light I wouldnt have charged you to check and reset the light. $110.00 for the 10 or 20 minutes it took a tech to do that is excessive. The charge for the egr valve is about right, but the o2 sensor, maf sensor and tune up seems way too high. Did they tell you what the fault codes were?

PM me, I can look up most of the info from home

[Muntz]

Some very good advise there !! Cash for Clunkers should get you a $4500.00 trade in value , but I believe that is towards the purchase of a "new" car. The do-it-yourself advise should also be seriously considered.



+1 on Autozone and the EGR. Its a simpler fix. If you cant find a friend who can turn a wrench and buy him some beers and git'er done.

[Smoke]

First off, I work at a Toyota dealership service dept.

I do think the dealer burned you on the service a bit. In my shop if you came back in shortly afterwards for a second check engine light I wouldnt have charged you to check and reset the light. $110.00 for the 10 or 20 minutes it took a tech to do that is excessive. The charge for the egr valve is about right, but the o2 sensor, maf sensor and tune up seems way too high. Did they tell you what the fault codes were?

PM me, I can look up most of the info from home

There ya go. A code reader can be had pretty cheap for the OBDII. I'm a firm believer in keeping a car, and although I've never owned a foreign make, the Camry is at the top of the list for reliability. It's almost always cheaper to keep the car you have.

Tons of internet sites to research, problem codes to look up, photos of how to do the work, etc. I'd do it myself if I were you. Looks like the service dept is looking to simply replace everything hooked up to the on board computer until they find the problem part. Screw that. Go buy a code reader and check it out. Then pm Bigdaddy for some assistance. Sounds like the best, and cheapest plan at this point. Good luck

[nash.VTX]

When we took it in the second time (only charged labor) the codes were..
P0171 (System too lean), P0300 (Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected), P0302 (Cylinder 2 misfired), P0304 (Cylinder 4 misfired) & P0306 (Cylinder 6 misfired). They spent about 2 hrs to find/diagnose the problem since they could not find anything specific - Wife was at the dealership and saw them working so we thought it was reasonable to pay the $110.

Co-incidently the third time around, the codes came out same but now with the known problem/symptom, they were able to narrow it down to O2 sensor+air flow meter (so they say). The guy said there is a huge carbon build up so it needs to be replaced - but I agree probably they don't care much.

Checked out the Cash for Clunkers - just missed the boat, they recently updated the list and now only 94 and before Camry's are eligible
http://www.edmunds.com/cash-for-clunkers/eligible-vehicles.html

I am not a wrench - infact first time in my life I went beyond filling air in the tires on VTX thanks to this board I did get hold of a CHILTON repair manual for the camry (includes Lexus/Avalon) seems very generic (unlike our VTX manual) - will take time to learn. Guess my best bet is to find a good reliable local shop/guy and go from there - it should definitely come out cheaper - we want to try and keep this as they easily last 200k and more.

Autozone for future needs is also a great tip. Thanks all for the inputs and suggestions - appreciate :bowdown:

[KD3NE]

Advice For The Future ....

1) Purchase Service Manual

2) Purchase OBDII Code Reader

3) Purchase Hand Tools


All that you paid for, you could do yourself fairly easily.


A good OBDII Code Reader about $200

A Service Manual - Maybe $100

I bet you could have purchased the Code Reader, Service Manual, Tools and ALL PARTS for that last quoted price of $947.00

Sensors are generally easy to replace, finding them can be tricky.

Oh and I would seek out the Dealer Principal ( Owner ) and lodge a complaint with him about those excessive Diagnostic Fees. I bet if you talk with him, things will be different.

Years ago I worked at a Toyota Dealership, and trust me when you talk to the Owner the Service Manage will do things for you he swore he could not do!!!! :lol:

EDIT: My sisters Camry ( 1993 ) model has 375,000 miles on it.


ALSO - you *might* be able to clean off those sensors if Carbon buildup is the problem - I have heard of that being done.

In my case I needed an IACV replaced on a Ford due to Carbon buildup. We took out the old one, cleaned it up and put it back in. Still working fine today.

Dealer would have charged me $210 for that job.

$50 Part
$60 Labor
$100 Diags

[lh4x4]

Harbor Freight has a good OBDII reader for about $40. I've used mine for a couple years now. Last year I traded a 99 MX5 in. A block for the dealer I stopped and canceled the codes ( low efficiency cat). That one stays off for about 30 minutes of run time.

The sales man asked me a couple weeks latter if I knew that the check engine light was on. I said yes it would come and go that it was related to the cat but that was because there was no converter on it.

[big hanno]

If only they made a OBDII Code Reader for women!!!!! Then I'd know why I was in trouble all the time.:lol:

[4inchpistons]

Advice For The Future ....
A good OBDII Code Reader about $200

True, but if price is an issue, many parts stores, including Auto Zone, will read the codes for you free of charge.

[ram51running]

Fix it, or have independant repair shop do the work, it will give you at least another 100K miles if you have kept the oil changed at proper times
since you purchased the car. If you decide to get rid of the car, sell
it your self, you will be money ahead. Then when you walk into a dealer to buy, you can deal much better without a trade-in. Don't be afraid to walk away from a car that you want, if they want a sell they will call you with a counter offer, that has worked for me evrytime I buy a new car.
Remember, new car sales are slow at this time, used cars are what are selling much better in my area.

[nash.VTX]

...I had a 1985 Honda Civic that i put 320,000 miles on before it started to smoke and needed rings. I now have a 1994 Honda Civic with over 220,000 miles on it and it is still in fine shape....

..EDIT: My sisters Camry ( 1993 ) model has 375,000 miles on it.
..


:yikes: that's awesome - hope mine lasts that long :D

[nash.VTX]

We will talk to the toyota service manager and see if he can reason out, also parallelly try to find a good independent shop/guy. Anyone locally here reading this pls feel free to PM any suggestions for a realiable/trustworthy place.

Thanks again all for the different ideas, suggestions and opinions. Knowledge is power :thumbup:

[dbx]

If only they made a OBDII Code Reader for women!!!!! Then I'd know why I was in trouble all the time.:lol:Great Idea :!: No labor involved, no worries about why, just clear the trouble code and start fresh :cool:

[JollyRoger]

If only they made a OBDII Code Reader for women!!!!! Then I'd know why I was in trouble all the time.:lol:


amen! :bowdown:

[purelure]

nash, you have a pm. Actually 2, forgot to send the link in the first one:oops:

[pmack]

If ya got it fixed, keep drivin' it. No matter what ya buy, it's eventually gonna need some repair.

My '96 Tacoma V-6 has 320k, and I've had all the issues you mentioned at 1 time or another. But overall she still drives and runs strong, I keep the oil and filters changed on regular intervals. Then change timing belt and all other belts, hoses, plugs, and transmission filter every 100k.

Nothing I've seen on any car-lot looks as good as it feels to have dependable transportation with the title in the glovebox. jmo !

[nash.VTX]

*Update*

The issue is resolved - the camry now runs smoother than ever did, cost me $419 plus two free oil changes. We are definitely keeping it. :thumbup:

Thanks for all the help/advise.

[CandleStick]

*Update*

The issue is resolved - the camry now runs smoother than ever did, cost me $419 plus two free oil changes. We are definitely keeping it. :thumbup:

Thanks for all the help/advise.

Good to hear, I have thought that getting a different car would be better, it's not, just more expensive. If your car is paid for, keep it until it is completely unfixable.

[ut1volsman]

If your mechanically inclined fix it yourself or small trusted independant dealer, debt sucks.

[Smoke]

*Update*

The issue is resolved - the camry now runs smoother than ever did, cost me $419 plus two free oil changes. We are definitely keeping it. :thumbup:

Thanks for all the help/advise.

Good deal. Glad to hear you kept it and now it's good for another 100K. :thumbup:

[homdavtxmike]

did you know about the giant engine recall on some of toyotas 4 and 6 cylinder engines?

[Ghost-Flame]

No option 6.? when engine light comes on go to Autozone and have them read OBDII codes for free. Then do the repairs yourself. Nothing above is very difficult and the dealer is bending you over good on price.

Dealer charged you $110 just to read misfire codes and reset light telling you nothing wrong. Then light comes back on (of course it would, if it misfires once it will do it again if you don't correct problem) and now charging you for the shotgun replacement approach. Very unlikely you actually need all those parts replaced.

So if you're not up to wrenching yourself probably time to say goodbye to this car before you sink in more money and get committed. After 10 years and 135k miles you are only approaching the bell curve on repairs, expect more to come for wear out items, struts, bushings, bearings, water pump, alternator, etc.

If you decide to start working on it yourself I can give you some tips for your current problems. Don't blindly replace all the items your dealer advised.

_

plus 1

For what it is worth. I have been relearning how to do repairs 3 of my cars have over 90,000 miles on them and I intend to keep them for a long long time. 350/month car payment does an aweful lot of repairs when you do most of them yourself.
I got shop manuals for all my cars and I let the philosophy of... If its made by man it can be fixed by man and last I checked I am a man so, I can fix it. use whatever free services available (auto zone etc), Find blogs for repairs, network other DIYers (they are a freaky bunch they will help you for free just to get their hands greasy, of course return the favor). I have been enjoying my new hobby and this year alone on all 4 cars I've saved at least $5,000 in repairs and have gotten some unexpected satisfaction out of the endeavor.:thumbup:

[bigdaddy1]

did you know about the giant engine recall on some of toyotas 4 and 6 cylinder engines?


Sorry Charlie, no such animal. There is a campaign to cover SOME toyota engines for sludge build up. If your Toyota is burning oil due to heavy sludge build up in the oil journels Toyota will repair that condition. If you take care of your engine (via regular oil changes) this condition will not occure anyway.

[homdavtxmike]

i beg to differ there was giant settlement on behalf of toyota involving certain engines that got oil starved and geled up and seized some of which where maintained according to the the lawsuit.to say it wasnt an issue isnt the truth

[bigdaddy1]

I work in a Toyota service dept. I have seen many an engine that apply to this "settlement" that once inspected show no signs of gelling. These were cars that received regular maintenance. The REAL story was that Toyota indicated in the service manual that you can go UP TO 7,500 miles between oil changes. Many took this as gospel, and as we all know 7,500 means 8,000 or 9,000 miles must be ok. There are several key issues that one must show prior to getting this repair. You must show proof of regular oil changes, the engine must exhibit signs of oil consumption and fail a visual inspection of the valve train and/or oil pump. What that means is just because its there doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Toyota will stand behind their product, but you also have to take care of your car.

We get decent money for doing these, but we also have to jump through hoops to get them authorized.

[PHATV]

*Update*

The issue is resolved - the camry now runs smoother than ever did, cost me $419 plus two free oil changes. We are definitely keeping it. :thumbup:

Thanks for all the help/advise.

Awesome. You'll likely get many more years.
$0 payment vs. new/used car payment is a no-brainer.
No debt. Save your money for chrome and guns and ammo.
;)
Congrats, though. Glad to hear it worked out.
:congrats:

[race66]

When we took it in the second time (only charged labor) the codes were..
P0171 (System too lean), P0300 (Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected), P0302 (Cylinder 2 misfired), P0304 (Cylinder 4 misfired) & P0306 (Cylinder 6 misfired). They spent about 2 hrs to find/diagnose the problem since they could not find anything specific - Wife was at the dealership and saw them working so we thought it was reasonable to pay the $110.

Co-incidently the third time around, the codes came out same but now with the known problem/symptom, they were able to narrow it down to O2 sensor+air flow meter (so they say). The guy said there is a huge carbon build up so it needs to be replaced - but I agree probably they don't care much.

Checked out the Cash for Clunkers - just missed the boat, they recently updated the list and now only 94 and before Camry's are eligible
http://www.edmunds.com/cash-for-clunkers/eligible-vehicles.html

I am not a wrench - infact first time in my life I went beyond filling air in the tires on VTX thanks to this board I did get hold of a CHILTON repair manual for the camry (includes Lexus/Avalon) seems very generic (unlike our VTX manual) - will take time to learn. Guess my best bet is to find a good reliable local shop/guy and go from there - it should definitely come out cheaper - we want to try and keep this as they easily last 200k and more.

Autozone for future needs is also a great tip. Thanks all for the inputs and suggestions - appreciate :bowdown:


daughter's car grand am gt V6 was experiencing poor idle- up and down.

auto parts store checked codes for her-

(Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected)

My son and I replaced the plugs (the electrodes were nearly gone!!).

runs smooth as glass right now and runs great.

still has check engine light. She'll have to have the codes rechecked.

cheap fix, but hard to replace the three plugs by the firewall!!

[nash.VTX]

The car was paid for within the first 3 or so years, always been very particular about maintainance, did not want to add another new car payment - so we thought lets go ahead and fix it. As far as I know there is no eligible recalls. Plugs were checked and found to be in good condition - so I am told. As for doing the repairs myself, I guess I could perform basic servicing (changing fluids, etc.) but afraid to touch other stuff. Time availability is also another issue as work keeps pretty busy - so I am happy with wrenching just the VTX, thanks to the knowledge here.

I hope it lasts for another 100k or so ! :thumbup: