Health Care Bill---You decide????

[bownutrob]

Time to get engaged or live w/ the results..>>>---->

First 500 pages of the Health Care Bill HIGHLIGHTS

"I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be
depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them
the real facts.”--Abraham Lincoln

Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this… positive or negative. We,as a country, cannot afford another 1000 page bill to go through congress
without being read. Another 500 pages to go.

* Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
* Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
* Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits
you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
* Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for
you. You will have no choice. None.
* Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free
healthcare services.
* Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
* Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all
individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
* Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community
organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
* Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to
participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
* Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare
Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
* Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services;
translation: illegal aliens
* Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up
individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
* Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you
have no choice in the matter.
* Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial
review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private
insurers will be crushed.
* Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
* Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run
public plan. No alternatives.
* Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND
their families.
* Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer
the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
* Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not
offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
* Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare
(according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
* Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes
(Americans will pay for them).
* Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will
have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
* Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as
tax." Yes, it really says that.
* Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and
the poor most affected."
* Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid
the same (thanks, AMA!)
* Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional
judgment, etc.
* Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private
healthcare industries.
* Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven
wheelchairs.
* Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
* Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems
preventable re-admissions.
* Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that
results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
* Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in
healthcare companies!
* Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand
without government approval.
* Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words,
yet another payoff for ACORN.
* Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures:
i.e., rationing.
* Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans,
HMOs, etc.
* Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS
individuals.
* Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by
phone).
* Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior
Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
* Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills,
durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes
ahead of time.
* Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources,
guiding you in death.
* Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;
government dictates how your life ends.
* Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment
as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life
plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
* Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at
end-of-life.
* Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for
ACORN.
* Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government
intervenes in your marriage.
* Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating
and rationing those services.

[Wolfcub]

Where's Christopher Columbus when we really need him. I'll get on one of those ships now and take my chances. Scurvey, desintery, hurricans, all seem like a walk in the park compared to what we are instore for.

[crew]

I think once we get a final bill folks can read it ...

So far everything is still up for revision ...

... but folks want to look at the bigger picture ...

First ..

The end of life stuff is probably the biggest lie (there's so many it's hard to tell) being perpetuated by those who know better ... and tries to turn reasonable adults into frightened, angry children ...

It's about a living will which everyone should have ... and gives you more choices at a time when you are best able to decide for yourself ... and to help those who love you most help you when you are most helpless ...

... your decision ....

... with the help of your doctor ...

... when you are ready ...

We desperately need reform and regulation of insurers and health care ...

... everyone will not be happy with everything ...

... what you don't like today you may desperately need tomorrow ...

... and ...

Before Medicare only 50% of seniors were insured. Now our seniors get good medical care without a bureaucrat between you and your doctor. You can't say that about the private insurance and HMO boys.

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[Captain_s54]

http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/images/smilies/552m7.gif Drinking Koolaid again!

[X-Beast Driver]

This is a YouTube video that was made of US Rep. Tom Price-6th Dist. on Wednesday. Tom is a member of the House Healthcare Committee, and the video was shot in the Wed. Committee meeting. Please share this with everyone you know.............this healthcare legislation MUST be defeated. Please share this video. Tom has said that our Constitution is being burned right before our very eyes. We must, Democrats and Republicans alike, let our "leaders" know that this plan is unacceptable.
There has to be a better way than a government takeover! If the Government takes over, it will be one of the most colossal blunders in the history of this Nation!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD_YOlUBoIk

[bownutrob]

I think once we get a final bill folks can read it ...

So far everything is still up for revision ...

... but folks want to look at the bigger picture ...

First ..

The end of life stuff is probably the biggest lie (there's so many it's hard to tell) being perpetuated by those who know better ... and tries to turn reasonable adults into frightened, angry children ...

It's about a living will which everyone should have ... and gives you more choices at a time when you are best able to decide for yourself ... and to help those who love you most help you when you are most helpless ...

... your decision ....

... with the help of your doctor ...

... when you are ready ...

We desperately need reform and regulation of insurers and health care ...

... everyone will not be happy with everything ...

... what you don't like today you may desperately need tomorrow ...

... and ...

Before Medicare only 50% of seniors were insured. Now our seniors get good medical care without a bureaucrat between you and your doctor. You can't say that about the private insurance and HMO boys.

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


Crew,(w/ respect sir), Once we get the "final bill", it will be too late.Even you sir must admit, they tried to pass it just like they did the stimulus, by raming it down our throats qickley. Afterall, our fearless leaders don't have time for trivial things such as "READING THE BILL"...The only reason it is up for revision is because of an outcry from some concerned citizens and a hand full of bluedog dems..Take it to the bank, we will have some form of a bill passed, how will it change your kids and grandkids life's???
As I said "get engaged or live w/ the results" >>>--->

[crew]

*** Tom has said that our Constitution is being burned :yikes: right before our very eyes.:yikes: ****

Are these the same "signs and wonders" folks that see UFOs and J@$@$ in a dogs @$$ ...

http://themishmash.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/28/dog_butt_jesus.jpg

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[crew]

Crew,(w/ respect sir), (back at ya' ;) ) Afterall, our fearless leaders don't have time for trivial things such as "READING THE BILL"...The only reason it is up for revision is because of an outcry from some concerned citizens and a hand full of bluedog dems..***

This is one of the most significant pieces of legislation in the past four decades ...

... and this is a time for thoughtful deliberation ... from our elected representatives and their committees, rather than the "just say no" and stalling we've been getting ...

Folks should be demanding more town hall meetings rather than trying to shut down the few we have ... or monopolize them with wild conspiracy theories and irrational rhetoric ...

Luckily, we can bypass the chaos because access to the material and our representatives has never been easier of faster ....

When I write my representative(s) I usually get a response within 72 hours and there's plenty of aides to man the switchboars for those who prefer to call ... and now the town hall meetings have moved to the phones and internet to try to restore a little order and decorum ...

but ...

opinions vary ..

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[Duug]

"Palin calls Dems healthcare plan "evil," cites threat to Trig


Describing Democratic healthcare plans as "evil," Sarah Palin is warning that the proposals being debated in Washington could threaten the life of Trig, her Down Syndrome infant boy.

Palin, in her first policy statement since resigning as Alaska governor, wrote on her Facebook page Friday afternoon that the sick, elderly and disabled would suffer should healthcare be rationed, as conservatives claim it will with a public option.

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care," Palin wrote. "Such a system is downright evil."... "


:agree:

[Thunder Road]

Here is the Texas Governor on a radio talk show.
If you have seen this clip, i think it is worthy of a repeat!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVcQehsKSkU

[Biodude]

Time to get engaged or live w/ the results..>>>---->

First 500 pages of the Health Care Bill HIGHLIGHTS

"I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be
depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them
the real facts.”--Abraham Lincoln

Contact your Representatives and let them know how you feel about this… positive or negative. We,as a country, cannot afford another 1000 page bill to go through congress
without being read. Another 500 pages to go.

* Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
* Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
* Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits
you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
* Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for
you. You will have no choice. None.
* Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free
healthcare services.
* Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
* Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all
individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
* Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community
organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
* Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to
participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
* Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare
Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
* Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services;
translation: illegal aliens
* Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up
individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
* Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you
have no choice in the matter.
* Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial
review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private
insurers will be crushed.
* Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
* Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run
public plan. No alternatives.
* Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND
their families.
* Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer
the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
* Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not
offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
* Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare
(according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
* Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes
(Americans will pay for them).
* Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will
have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
* Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as
tax." Yes, it really says that.
* Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and
the poor most affected."
* Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid
the same (thanks, AMA!)
* Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional
judgment, etc.
* Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private
healthcare industries.
* Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven
wheelchairs.
* Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
* Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems
preventable re-admissions.
* Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that
results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
* Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in
healthcare companies!
* Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand
without government approval.
* Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words,
yet another payoff for ACORN.
* Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures:
i.e., rationing.
* Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans,
HMOs, etc.
* Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS
individuals.
* Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by
phone).
* Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior
Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
* Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills,
durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes
ahead of time.
* Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources,
guiding you in death.
* Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;
government dictates how your life ends.
* Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment
as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life
plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
* Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at
end-of-life.
* Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for
ACORN.
* Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government
intervenes in your marriage.
* Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating
and rationing those services.


one of these days I'll have the time to go through each one of these as Im curious if thasy hold water, but the first one I picked to see whats its talkking about, which is page 29, DOES NOT speak of rationing healthcare. It is specifically setting limits on the amount of money an individual will have to cost share per year. Cost Sharing is Co-Payments, so the annual limit is the most an individual will have to shell out of pocket on CO-Pays in a given year. Putting a CAp on co-payments is a GOOD THING!!!! (better when there are no co-pays, but thats rare these days for any provider)

heres a more thorough line by line regarding the Page 29 comment
http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2463523&postcount=84


Heres the actual bill, if you'd like to read it
HR3200 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf)

[crew]

one of these days I'll have the time to go through each one of these as Im curious if thasy hold water,***


Heres the actual bill, if you'd like to read it
HR3200 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf)

:thumbup:

Many thanks ....

29

•
HR 3200 IH

1


services (as specified under the benefit standards),

2


including well baby and well child care.

3


(2) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—

4


(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-shar5

ing incurred under the essential benefits pack


6

age with respect to an individual (or family) for
7



a year does not exceed the applicable level spec8
ified in subparagraph (B).

This is the "just add fear and loathing" and shake until dead crowd ...

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lg86383-2+fear-and-loathing-in-las-vegas-hunter-s-thompson-poster.jpg

Have a great weekend ... :!:

opinions vary ...

all blessings ....

crew

:crew:

[Jbose]

If you read on regarding the cost sharing, you will also realize that that cost increases each year based on a percentage of the consumer price index. If I read that correctly the first year will be the least expensive it will ever be. It states: "Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100.00) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the consumer Price Index (United states city) average applicable to such year." Welcome to the great screwing!

[JP Huss]

I think once we get a final bill folks can read it ...

So far everything is still up for revision ...

... but folks want to look at the bigger picture ...

First ..

The end of life stuff is probably the biggest lie (there's so many it's hard to tell) being perpetuated by those who know better ... and tries to turn reasonable adults into frightened, angry children ...

It's about a living will which everyone should have ... and gives you more choices at a time when you are best able to decide for yourself ... and to help those who love you most help you when you are most helpless ...

... your decision ....

... with the help of your doctor ...

... when you are ready ...

We desperately need reform and regulation of insurers and health care ...

... everyone will not be happy with everything ...

... what you don't like today you may desperately need tomorrow ...

... and ...

Before Medicare only 50% of seniors were insured. Now our seniors get good medical care without a bureaucrat between you and your doctor. You can't say that about the private insurance and HMO boys.

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


:agree: Well put Crew... But this will get heated. I have not read the bill myself, and I would bet most havent. We need reform. And we need it now!

[JP Huss]

[quote=Duug;2469337]

"Palin calls Dems healthcare plan "evil," cites threat to Trig


Describing Democratic healthcare plans as "evil," Sarah Palin is warning that the proposals being debated in Washington could threaten the life of Trig, her Down Syndrome infant boy.

Palin, in her first policy statement since resigning as Alaska governor, wrote on her Facebook page Friday afternoon that the sick, elderly and disabled would suffer should healthcare be rationed, as conservatives claim it will with a public option.

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care," Palin wrote. "Such a system is downright evil."... "


LOL,,, Your quoting Palin in your arguement??????:joke:

This is getting too good :popcorn:

[JollyRoger]

I think once we get a final bill folks can read it ...

So far everything is still up for revision ...

... but folks want to look at the bigger picture ...

First ..

The end of life stuff is probably the biggest lie (there's so many it's hard to tell) being perpetuated by those who know better ... and tries to turn reasonable adults into frightened, angry children ...

It's about a living will which everyone should have ... and gives you more choices at a time when you are best able to decide for yourself ... and to help those who love you most help you when you are most helpless ...

... your decision ....

... with the help of your doctor ...

... when you are ready ...

We desperately need reform and regulation of insurers and health care ...

... everyone will not be happy with everything ...

... what you don't like today you may desperately need tomorrow ...

... and ...

Before Medicare only 50% of seniors were insured. Now our seniors get good medical care without a bureaucrat between you and your doctor. You can't say that about the private insurance and HMO boys.

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


:crackpipe:

[RonnieX]

:agree: Well put Crew... But this will get heated. I have not read the bill myself, and I would bet most havent. We need reform. And we need it now!


Where would you start with your reforms? Can you provide detail?

[roughrider]

I have learned to be suspicious of anyone who tries to push/sell something to me before I have the time to check it out. I have been screwed by a fast talking car salesman and a banker. It reminds me of what is going on now.
Don't point your finger at Obama, he is just the latest puppet. George was the last, do you remember how fast McCain left the campaign trail to vote for the first bailout? How many Americans would have been for the "Stimulus Package" if they would have known $27 Billion was going to Goldman Sachs and $4 Billion was for bonuses to people who had let it go bankrupt? Our government is being controlled by the "World Bank" why do you think the drug industry has donated $80 Billion to the "health care" cause? They are also owned by the WORLD BANK along with the "fed" and now AIG, GM, Chrysler, etc. When they own our health care system they will be able to hold our heads completely under water. I think I remember a lot of laws that went along with Canada's health care program, to keep costs down they decided everyone had to wear a helmet when skating, skateboarding, bicycling, motorcycle riding, hand guns were too dangerous to own, etc.
We have a bunch of lawyers/representatives working for us, lets give them time to read it before passing it.
Let no crisis go to waste!:yikes: sb

[crew]

:agree: Well put Crew... But this will get heated. I have not read the bill myself, and I would bet most havent. We need reform. And we need it now!

:thumbup:

Part of the democratic process is compromise ...

... but anyone who thinks they can choose their own doctors and their own labs under the current system is sadly misinformed ...

This becomes an absolute nightmare when you have ongoing chronic ailments ... especially in rural areas ...

The lab that was in your network when you went to bed may not be in your network when you drive there in the morning to get your bloodwork done ...

... and it is ALWAYS (MOL) the patient's responsibility ...

This becomes horrible if you are diagnosed with cancer or such and you are looking at dozens of procedures at multiple facilities for the next six months to five years ...

Anyone who has ever experienced this or similar situations knows this is exactly what President Obama is talking about (with his mom) when he says we need reform ...

but ...

opinions vary ....

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[Biodude]

If you read on regarding the cost sharing, you will also realize that that cost increases each year based on a percentage of the consumer price index. If I read that correctly the first year will be the least expensive it will ever be. It states: "Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100.00) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the consumer Price Index (United states city) average applicable to such year." Welcome to the great screwing!

my non gvt based policy cost basis the same way, most will, basically it means that the amount you the policy holder will spend in total co pays will be limited, but the limit will be based on average consumer price indices.

realistically, I doubt that anyone makes enough dr visits a year to reach that co-pay cap anyway.

point is, the anti-groups are picking individual components out of the bill removing it from context and misinform the public , they do this cause they damn well know that 99% of those ready to be on the band wagon will never challeng it or read the document.

that plan may suck, I dont know that yet, havent read all 1000+ pages yet

[RonnieX]

:thumbup:

Part of the democratic process is compromise ...

... but anyone who thinks they can choose their own doctors and their own labs under the current system is sadly misinformed ...

This becomes an absolute nightmare when you have ongoing chronic ailments ... especially in rural areas ...

The lab that was in your network when you went to bed may not be in your network when you drive there in the morning to get your bloodwork done ...

... and it is ALWAYS (MOL) the patient's responsibility ...

This becomes horrible if you are diagnosed with cancer or such and you are looking at dozens of procedures at multiple facilities for the next six months to five years ...

Anyone who has ever experienced this or similar situations knows this is exactly what President Obama is talking about (with his mom) when he says we need reform ...

but ...

opinions vary ....

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


That’s fear mongering nonsense Crew. I choose who my family sees. Now you’re making chit up just bolster your point.
I would agree that some reform and regulation I is required, but this paid hack lying will not move the conversation forward.
Can we see the pictures of the angry mobs again?

[crew]

That’s fear mongering nonsense Crew. I choose who my family sees. Now you’re making chit up just bolster your point.
I would agree that some reform and regulation I is required, but this paid hack lying will not move the conversation forward.
Can we see the pictures of the angry mobs again?

No ... this is the way it works for most folks when they are most vulnerable and least prepared ...

Most plans you have a limited choice within a network ...

It is the go where you want stuff that either is unique to your particular plan ( like socialized Medicare and such ... ) that is the exception and not the rule ...

It is not "fear mongering" but a simple fact of life and the principle reason most thoughtful folks wouldn't be caught dead (:lol:;):lol:) without health insurance and why most folks will never voluntarily get out of Medicare ... single payer government run program ...

It is just that folks are slow learners and don't realize what a nightmare it is until it happens to them ...


http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/foreclosure-house.jpg
We buy insurance with the hope that we will never have to use it ... and often find out that it is not there to meet our needs when we need it most ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ....

crew

:crew:

[Thunder Road]

The Obama deception could be about this....Take 2 hrs. out of your day and watch this video..... This video goes beyond Obama and goes into detail about a hidden agenda. I not saying it is valid, I'm saying watch if you can spare the couple of hous and make your on decision.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

[RonnieX]

No ... this is the way it works for most folks when they are most vulnerable and least prepared ...

Most plans you have a limited choice within a network ...

It is the go where you want stuff that either is unique to your particular plan ( like socialized Medicare and such ... ) that is the exception and not the rule ...

It is not "fear mongering" but a simple fact of life and the principle reason most thoughtful folks wouldn't be caught dead (:lol:;):lol:) without health insurance and why most folks will never voluntarily get out of Medicare ... single payer government run program ...

It is just that folks are slow learners and don't realize what a nightmare it is until it happens to them ...


http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/foreclosure-house.jpg
We buy insurance with the hope that we will never have to use it ... and often find out that it is not there to meet our needs when we need it most ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ....

crew

:crew:


Of course its fear mongering. Most people are happy with their heath care.

Admit it, the real issue here is whether health care should be bought and sold on the open market. You have spoken about the churches you are affiliated with recently and how you are a jack of all trades in the show biz field. I think the government should take those industries over as well, along with the housing and food production industries. Just think of how many issues that would solve, no more Jew vs. Gentile, and end to hunger, homelessness, and we would get free movies. Of course that with all this new regulation motorcycles would be too dangerous to have, so the feds would not allow you to have one.

Ronnie "No riding for you!"

[crew]

Of course its fear mongering. Most people are happy with their heath care.

Admit it, the real issue here is whether health care should be bought and sold on the open market. ***

Ronnie "No riding for you!"

There's a bunch of reasons why folks are "satisfied" ...

There's a bunch of folks that have socialized, government program and hybrid programs already ... Medicare, Federal employees, state employees, unionized labor, the Military, VETS, and on and on ... endowments ... etc ... the "good stuff" the protesters are against for others ... this is a NIMBY nation and folks are afraid the stuff they have will be diminished if offered to others ... the stuff that is unsustainable unless we change the system ...

... slackers and others have been carried by their parents or spousal benefits for all of the above or are new on the job and have never been really sick and had to call on their policy ...

... and 18 months in the medical coverage business is a lifetime and what you were told you had when you started the job (employers are in the insurance business) is not necessarily what you can expect tomorrow ...

http://lornakismet.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/billboardbirthcertificate650.jpg

... and some folks are just plain ignorant and have no idea what it's about ...


but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[RonnieX]

There's a bunch of reasons why folks are "satisfied" ...

There's a bunch of folks that have socialized, government program and hybrid programs already ... Medicare, Federal employees, state employees, unionized labor, the Military, VETS, and on and on ... endowments ... etc ... the "good stuff" the protesters are against for others ... this is a NIMBY nation and folks are afraid the stuff they have will be diminished if offered to others ... the stuff that is unsustainable unless we change the system ...

... slackers and others have been carried by their parents or spousal benefits for all of the above or are new on the job and have never been really sick and had to call on their policy ...

... and 18 months in the medical coverage business is a lifetime and what you were told you had when you started the job (employers are in the insurance business) is not necessarily what you can expect tomorrow ...

http://lornakismet.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/billboardbirthcertificate650.jpg

... and some folks are just plain ignorant and have no idea what it's about ...


but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


That’s a good graphic, a nonissue. The elections commission certified the Birth Certificate, but I enjoy seeing the sign. Reminds me of how the left uses passive aggression to stir the pot. I like the tea bag lady better.

Medical insurance provided as a benefit or term of employment is not socialized medicine, nor is Medicare, but, I won’t quibble.

The unsustainable system that has your knickers in a wad is the best on the planet. It brings you almost all new drug therapies and treatments for dread diseases. Diseases once a death sentence are now manageable, some even curable. Those advancements came about because there is profit in it. I recall someone saying, there is no tragedy so great that someone cannot profit from it.

As for your last sentence, I believe I have the education and experience to discuss this with you on any level you wish, and perhaps a few you cannot.

Bring it on dough boy, let’s rock!

LOL

[crew]

***

The unsustainable system that has your knickers in a wad is the best on the planet.***
LOL

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

Total Health Expenditures as % of GDP, 2002-2005 - Country Rankings

1 Marshall Islands (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/marshall_islands)
2 United States of America (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/united_states)
3 Niue (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/niue)
4 Timor-Leste (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/timorleste)
5 Micronesia (Fed. States of) (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/micronesia_federated_states_of/index.html)
6 Kiribati (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/kiribati)
7 Maldives (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/maldives)
8 Malawi (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/malawi)
9 Switzerland (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/switzerland)
10 France (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/france)
***

27 Italy (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/italy)

Clearly no individual country has a single best answer ...

... and most certainly most are going over to hybrid systems ....

But the old "We're number 1" nonsense does not belong to a debtor nation to China, Russia and Mexico ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[eperk]

Crew, the WHO has its own agenda.
If you really think we rank 37th. Why do more people come here for healthcare every year than leave. If the WHO stats were real there would be a mass exodus from here to get healthcare elsewhere. We got 60,000 from Canada alone according to the AMA, and that's just last year.

If France were #1 all the "rich folks" would go there for treatment. That would include your boy Teddy Kennedy.

[tomkat100]

Crew; You've got it right :agree:

[crew]

Crew, the WHO has its own agenda.
If you really think we rank 37th. Why do more people come here for healthcare every year than leave. If the WHO stats were real there would be a mass exodus from here to get healthcare elsewhere. We got 60,000 from Canada alone according to the AMA, and that's just last year.

If France were #1 all the "rich folks" would go there for treatment. That would include your boy Teddy Kennedy.

WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

Your Teddy Kennedy reference validates their methodology ...

Unless you are a Federal Employee and have Kennedy's wealth ... you will never, never, never acquire his level of medical care ... like if you ain't Dick Cheney you can't shoot your lawyer in the face and have HIM apologize to you ...


http://humanitas.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/06/foreclosure.jpg

Location ...

Location ...

Location ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[eperk]

Crew; You've got it right :agree:
Tomkat, read your own signature. Obama is the perfect example for the formula for failure.

[eperk]

WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).

Your Teddy Kennedy reference validates their methodology ...

Unless you are a Federal Employee and have Kennedy's wealth ... you will never, never, never acquire his level of medical care ... like if you ain't Dick Cheney you can't shoot your lawyer in the face and have HIM apologize to you ...


http://humanitas.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/06/foreclosure.jpg

Location ...

Location ...

Location ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:
Again that doesn't explain the exodus from other countries to our country for our health care. Most of these people aren't rich, they are desperate.

[crew]

Again that doesn't explain the exodus from other countries to our country for our health care. Most of these people aren't rich, they are desperate.

Poor people can't leave ...

You are much more likely to be poor than as rich as Kennedy ...

[RonnieX]

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

Total Health Expenditures as % of GDP, 2002-2005 - Country Rankings

1 Marshall Islands (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/marshall_islands)
2 United States of America (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/united_states)
3 Niue (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/niue)
4 Timor-Leste (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/timorleste)
5 Micronesia (Fed. States of) (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/micronesia_federated_states_of/index.html)
6 Kiribati (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/kiribati)
7 Maldives (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/maldives)
8 Malawi (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/malawi)
9 Switzerland (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/switzerland)
10 France (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/france)
***

27 Italy (http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/italy)

Clearly no individual country has a single best answer ...

... and most certainly most are going over to hybrid systems ....

But the old "We're number 1" nonsense does not belong to a debtor nation to China, Russia and Mexico ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:



Ah yes, the medical arm of the UN. Man that has street cred! What exactly did they grade on and who did the grading. You know come to think of it, I do remember Malta pioneering hip replacement surgery. I guess when your sweetheart fractures a hip at the creamed corn festival you can run her over to Malta. Nice place.

Malta sends young minds here to attend medical school, you and I pay for them.

Again your statistics are hollow, meaningless, and intended to obfuscate the issue. Offering the entire health care system to the government will not change our place on those lists. Only payola will. I'm just saying. :dontknow:

No pride in your country Dough Boy? You’re looking liking an America hating paid hack. Give your check back, I own you!

[bownutrob]

Thanks Biodude for posting the link to the bill sir...Everyone please encourage "your fearless leaders" that used to work for us, to "READ THE BILL"..If we don't get engaged, we will have these guys telling us what is best for "you and your family"..??? Do any of you REALLY want that? Are these guys more concerned w/ you and your family or just getting re-elected??? Think about it,, then get engaged or not, and as I said, "live w/ the results".....I am 50, I will adjust and be alright.. I am very concerned for my children and my 2 yr old grand-daughter? Ya'll have children??? I'm just sayin....>>>---->

[crew]

Ah yes, the medical arm of the UN. Man that has street cred! What exactly did they grade on and who did the grading.



WHO's assessment system was based on five indicators: overall level of population health;[SIZE=4] health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system's financial burden within the population (who pays the costs).



http://humanitas.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/06/foreclosure.jpg

Location ...

Location ...

Location ...



You know come to think of it, I do remember Malta pioneering hip replacement surgery. I guess when your sweetheart fractures a hip at the creamed corn festival you can run her over to Malta. Nice place.

Malta sends young minds here to attend medical school, you and I pay for them.

Again your statistics are hollow, meaningless, and intended to obfuscate the issue. Offering the entire health care system to the government will not change our place on those lists. Only payola will. I'm just saying. :dontknow:

No pride in your country Dough Boy? You’re looking liking an America hating paid hack. Give your check back, I own you!

I pretty much say and do whatever the %@<k I want ...

... and I love it when folks make an effort to memorize my $#!+ ...

http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=109&pictureid=1231

Thanks for making the effort ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teEm2toxBNU

Everyone gets one vote ...

You are delusional ...

But I do appreciate the effort ... ;)

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[Captain_s54]

Crew and all who are buying this CRAP from the current administration. I am a prime example of our current health care system. I am a simple employee for a large company who makes good $ but far from rich. My health care premium is taken out of my paycheck and my employer subsidizes it. It is far from perfect and we bitch about it but it is DAMN good when the chips were down and I needed it.
I just went through two major surgeries. I didn't want my original doctor to operate on me (even though he could have) I wanted an expert and nobody told me who I could pick or not. My surgeon works closely with my family doctor and nobody told me who he could be either. Further more my surgeon works in three different hospitals. I choose which hospital and I also choose another hospital when I wasen't satisfied with the 1st one. The bill all told was around $100,000 give or take. I paid around $2,000 counting deductable etc give or take out of my pocket. It was far from perfect but I do not want big brother telling me what I should do with my life concerning health care.

[crew]

... My health care premium is taken out of my paycheck and my employer subsidizes it. ***



This is pretty much a thing of the past if you follow the trends ...

If you've got a great policy and live in a metro are with lots of options ...

Great ...

Sounds like you've got a good union contract ...

Most employers are negotiating benefits down, not up ...

... and the cost of insurance is going up, not down ...

You now may have what they call a preexisting condition and medical risk ...

This grossly reduces your chances of getting reinsured should you be dropped ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that things worked out for you ...

It's just not that way for everyone ...

http://stories.barackobama.com/healthcare

:roll::roll::roll: These folks have stories too :roll::roll::roll:

I lost my beloved son to our terrible system last year. He had no insurance and so couldn't get diagnostic tests for his cancer until it was too late to save his life. ...

***

I have breast cancer and have already been through multiple imaging procedures, *** I have two deductibles on my plan, one for “in plan” and one for “out of plan.” ...

***

I am 53 years old, and recently remarried (Dec '08). When I had to take a 5% pay cut just after the marriage, I thought I was lucky because I still had a job, and health care that cost me more than $350 a month out of my paycheck. Then, on March 1, I was converted to an independent contractor at less than half pay, and with NO benefits. Just a few weeks ago, I suffered a seizure. ...

***

I was turned down by the cobra extension because one has to be fired or quit. I was placed on medical leave as a favor from my employer. They did so to give me hope of retaining my career once I am better. So now my cobra will be running out.

***

... and on and on ...

Give it a read for details ..

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[eperk]

I personally like the policy I have for my family that I personally pay for. I worked hard and took the opportunities my country offered me (and anyone born here) to get where I am today.
Health insurance is an earned privledge that you work for not an entitlement. If it is something the country owes us then why stop there? Let's all get free housing and our bills paid while we are at it.
Then let's figure out how we will pay for it.
I say not. This is a capitalistic society. you want socialism move somewhere else.

[Captain_s54]

This is pretty much a thing of the past if you follow the trends ...
It will be totally a thing of the past if the socialists get their way.

If you've got a great policy and live in a metro are with lots of options ...
I live in a rural area

Great ...

Sounds like you've got a good union contract ...
My job is non-union

Most employers are negotiating benefits down, not up ...
True, but they still need us

... and the cost of insurance is going up, not down ...
My premium reflects that but is still reasonable.

You now may have what they call a preexisting condition and medical risk ...
No preexisting condition at all.

This grossly reduces your chances of getting reinsured should you be dropped ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that things worked out for you ...

It's just not that way for everyone ...
It worked out for me because I worked hard and didn't expect others to carry me!

Try again!

[Captain_s54]

I personally like the policy I have for my family that I personally pay for. I worked hard and took the opportunities my country offered me (and anyone born here) to get where I am today.
Health insurance is an earned privledge that you work for not an entitlement. If it is something the country owes us then why stop there? Let's all get free housing and our bills paid while we are at it.
Then let's figure out how we will pay for it.
I say not. This is a capitalistic society. you want socialism move somewhere else.

:agree:

[eperk]

This is pretty much a thing of the past if you follow the trends ...
It will be totally a thing of the past if the socialists get their way.

If you've got a great policy and live in a metro are with lots of options ...
I live in a rural area

Great ...

Sounds like you've got a good union contract ...
My job is non-union

Most employers are negotiating benefits down, not up ...
True, but they still need us

... and the cost of insurance is going up, not down ...
My premium reflects that but is still reasonable.

You now may have what they call a preexisting condition and medical risk ...
No preexisting condition at all.

This grossly reduces your chances of getting reinsured should you be dropped ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that things worked out for you ...

It's just not that way for everyone ...
It worked out for me because I worked hard and didn't expect others to carry me!

Try again!

RIGHT ON Captain!!!

[RonnieX]

I pretty much say and do whatever the %@<k I want ...

... and I love it when folks make an effort to memorize my $#!+ ...

http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=109&pictureid=1231

Thanks for making the effort ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teEm2toxBNU

Everyone gets one vote ...

You are delusional ...

But I do appreciate the effort ... ;)

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


Yea, you do say whatever you want. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I, like most other people remember oddities, like someone covered in creamed hog feed. That’s a great photo.

It must sting have so many people own you at once. I enjoyed your reference to the contract. The only contract I know of between this government and the citizenry is the Constitution. I don’t recall a healthcare clause. Can you point it out for me please?

The problem I have with this health care issue is the data the government will begin collecting on each and every one of us. And the absolutely ridiculous decision the government will start taking. Let me give you an example.

We all agree that smoking is bad for ones health and drives up health care costs. It shortens the lifespan and creates smorgasbord serious health issues. If the government wanted to it could they could outlaw the tars and nicotine vie the FDA, effectively outlawing cigarettes. That alone would save billions in health care costs. So what does this say about the relationship between smokers and the government, obviously it want the tax revenue more than healthy citizenry.

Have you noticed that every time a proponent talks about health care the number of uninsured goes up? It started at 30m and today stated as over 60m. The only issue this administration or any other administration should busy itself with is illegal immigration. Until that under control nothing else is of consequence. Nothing! Getting the illegal immigrants out is the fastest way to solve many, many issues. And yet this administration, like the before it continue to ignore it. Obama may turn into a good POTUS but right now Carter fans are happy that he has replaced him as the worst POTUS ever. Honestly I don’t expect another great POTUS, the battle lines between the rights of the individual, State, and Federal Government are only growing sharper. The citizenry no longer has the education in civics and does everything possible to shirk the inherent duty as a citizen. I offer your support of a government health care takeover as an example.

Now back the more important things, How bout them Rockies?

[phatjack81]

For perspective, lets see what a member of the British Parliament, Daniel Hannan, has to say about their wonderful socialized medicine. No this is not about Glenn Beck, it's about socialized medicine, keep focused. No Saul Alinski's isolate and ridicule tactics needed.


http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=7940074&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/glennbeck/index.html#

[richs]

I agree that the current health care system needs an overhaul. But my big question to ANYONE who want a national health care sysyem is: Why do you want a government that can't balance a budget, is over 13 Trillion $$ in debt, it can't manage a simple "Cash for clunkers" program and if I need to get into it a bit more just take a look at the treatment that vet get, Why would you want them to be IN CHARGE of your cancer stricken child. THey can't get out of their own way with all the beuracracy they create. Look at your tax forms. Now you want them in matters that require quick action. ? Are they promising us the same health care package they give, entitle themselves to.
When I ask myself these questions I just freeze and say NO. CHRIST!! They can't conduct an election without supreme court appeals and recounts. It took Al FRanken 8 mos to go through the recounts and appeals to get a simple senator seat. These guys are so full of themselves there isn't room for your family and its' needs.
Look at the Health Care bill and ? why it is not worded in a language that you and I can understand. Not even a team of attorneys can read this bill and make a CLEAR CONSISE statement of what is exactly covered.

They want you to stumble into it based on warm fuzzy soundbites. We just can't afford to be that wrong.

What is flag@whitehouse.com about?

[crew]

The only issue this administration or any other administration should busy itself with is illegal immigration. Until that under control nothing else is of consequence. Nothing! ***

It's the employers and the contraband labor merchants ...

... all the disingenuous b!+<h!ng , whining, moaning and complaining is not going to make any difference ...

end of story ...

http://www.vtxoa.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=109&pictureid=1231

olà:!:

:crew:

[phatjack81]

[quote=crew;2471274]It's the employers and the contraband labor merchants ...

... all the disingenuous b!+<h!ng , whining, moaning and complaining is not going to make any difference ...

end of story ...
_______________________________________________

WOW !!! .... I'm glad that debate's over too, what a relief ....

[Scooter Geezer]

Crew and all who are buying this CRAP from the current administration. I am a prime example of our current health care system. I am a simple employee for a large company who makes good $ but far from rich. My health care premium is taken out of my paycheck and my employer subsidizes it. It is far from perfect and we bitch about it but it is DAMN good when the chips were down and I needed it.
I just went through two major surgeries. I didn't want my original doctor to operate on me (even though he could have) I wanted an expert and nobody told me who I could pick or not. My surgeon works closely with my family doctor and nobody told me who he could be either. Further more my surgeon works in three different hospitals. I choose which hospital and I also choose another hospital when I wasen't satisfied with the 1st one. The bill all told was around $100,000 give or take. I paid around $2,000 counting deductable etc give or take out of my pocket. It was far from perfect but I do not want big brother telling me what I should do with my life concerning health care.

Captain - you are getting close to the ultimate goal of this 'health care bill'. The goal is CONTROL! The Government already controls the schools, banks, and insurance industries. With Obama's Government adding major manufacturing, energy, and health care, the Government would have almost total control of our lives. There would be little or no freedom left.

[bownutrob]

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml (https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml) is the link so you can get to your Congress person and leave them a "polite message" concerning your thoughts on the Health Care Bill.. I also suggested that mine "READ THE BILL" !!!!!!!..
Oh, you can leave them a voice message(no matter where you live) at 202-224-3121 as well.... Get engaged, give them "YOUR THOUGHTS" whether you agree or not....Might remind them who they work for and ask them if they would be willing to sign a document stating that they will get on board w/ whatever they pass on health care for your kids and mine??? >>>---->

[eperk]

It's the employers and the contraband labor merchants ...

... all the disingenuous b!+<h!ng , whining, moaning and complaining is not going to make any difference ...

end of story ...



olà:!:

:crew:

Ok then. Let's bust those employers, I have no problem with that if they are breaking the law. At the same time let's bust the illegal aliens, because they are breaking the law also.What's good for the goose......

[Evi|grin]

If this "plan" or option is SO GOOD. Why did they vote down a bill to require congress and any that vote FOR the bill to join the plan/option too or taxed/fined accordingly?

Not a single congressional supporter of the current bills voted to be included in the "reform".

Why will they be completely exempt from this bill including financially.

Simple questions with obvious answers. ;)

They can push this plan down everyone's throat but their own and that speaks pretty loudly about how good they say it will be.

I dont need any other BS about town hall disruptions. Many of those people asked the same questions with a response of, "next question". When they wanted an answer they were removed. You wont see much of those question sessions in the media.

Ive never seen so much negative reporting about protesters and how BAD they are allegedly behaving. Id be pissed too if you refused to answer an honest and important question and only wanted to further YOUR agenda.

Universal equals MANDATORY period. You can not separate the two then make yourself exempt. They wont even be taxed if our current benefits are taxed to help pay for this bill.

The US Chamber of Commerce is even against the current bills. They want reform but none of the current bills would work according to them.

[naparisi]

Does anybody in their right mind trust our loved ones health care & our's to the government??
Think About It!!!!! :yikes::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::ba nghead::banghead::banghead:

Better yet.....does anybody in their right mind trust Obama with our loved ones health care & our's???????

[naparisi]

This is one of the most significant pieces of legislation in the past four decades ...

... and this is a time for thoughtful deliberation ... from our elected representatives and their committees, rather than the "just say no" and stalling we've been getting ...

Folks should be demanding more town hall meetings rather than trying to shut down the few we have ... or monopolize them with wild conspiracy theories and irrational rhetoric ...

Luckily, we can bypass the chaos because access to the material and our representatives has never been easier of faster ....

When I write my representative(s) I usually get a response within 72 hours and there's plenty of aides to man the switchboars for those who prefer to call ... and now the town hall meetings have moved to the phones and internet to try to restore a little order and decorum ...

but ...

opinions vary ..

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:




No offense, but WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING?????? wow!!!!:confused:

[slacks]

I try and I try and I try to just stay out of it.....however;

Bottom line is our current system which so many seem to like is bankrupting us. Period. Not doing anything is not an option. Its gonna be 1/2 measures and comprimises wether we like it or not. There is ALOT of (deliberate) disinformation and rumors out there, folks need to be careful where they are getting their info from (factcheck.org is a good place to review occasionally). As for the town hall disruptions? If you want your questions answered, act civil and participate, don't be an a#@#%!*, AND get the facts straight before the tourettes outburst. MORE town hall with participation from all sides is better than them being avoided due to a small group of knuckleheads wrecking grassroots democracy. I congratulate all those of you with great healthcare benefits, we are lucky (mine is ok'ish) - but that doesn't do anything for those that don't. For every "Mine is great" story there are as many "I work hard but..." stories. Why do so many people not understand this - or worse, care?

Aside from all that, this thread has been pretty interesting - not nearly as many personal attacks and outbursts as usual...relatively speaking (the usual suspects were pretty tame or quiet.) I'd love to see more of this on the OTE and less ideology bashing.

And finally, how in the world did anybody know that was creamed hog feed covering those two!?!?!?!:shock:

[ED winegarner]

I try and I try and I try to just stay out of it.....however;

Bottom line is our current system which so many seem to like is bankrupting us. Period. Not doing anything is not an option. Its gonna be 1/2 measures and comprimises wether we like it or not. There is ALOT of (deliberate) disinformation and rumors out there, folks need to be careful where they are getting their info from (factcheck.org is a good place to review occasionally). As for the town hall disruptions? If you want your questions answered, act civil and participate, don't be an a#@#%!*, AND get the facts straight before the tourettes outburst. MORE town hall with participation from all sides is better than them being avoided due to a small group of knuckleheads wrecking grassroots democracy. I congratulate all those of you with great healthcare benefits, we are lucky (mine is ok'ish) - but that doesn't do anything for those that don't. For every "Mine is great" story there are as many "I work hard but..." stories. Why do so many people not understand this - or worse, care?

Aside from all that, this thread has been pretty interesting - not nearly as many personal attacks and outbursts as usual...relatively speaking (the usual suspects were pretty tame or quiet.) I'd love to see more of this on the OTE and less ideology bashing.

And finally, how in the world did anybody know that was creamed hog feed covering those two!?!?!?!:shock:
:agree::agree::agree: Some of my customers that are teachers and others have lost their Insurance due to it costing more than they make and now they are FORCED to file bankruptcy due to hospital bills after such things as a heart attack. Our sue happy country has really got us in a jam along with the $20.** aspirin charge at the hosp.

[Glennok]

Anybody who thinks the Fed can run their healthcare without sticking their noses in your business is a fool. And you're also a fool if you think they can run it without spending three times what they need to spend.

I'm all for an overhaul, but I would rather see my healthcare in the hands of my state, not the Fed. THe Fed has proven time and again that they CAN'T RUN ANYTHING!!!!!!!!! What makes you think they can run this?????

[crew]

Ok then. Let's bust those employers, I have no problem with that if they are breaking the law. At the same time let's bust the illegal aliens, because they are breaking the law also.What's good for the goose......

If you "pop" the employers ... contraband labor merchants and those who create every loophole they can to to bring cheap labor to our shores at the cost of wage earning, home grown tax payers ...

Treat them like dope pushers ...

Close them down ...

Confiscate their ill gotten property ...

Throw them in jail ...

Take their money ...

Take their stash ...

... and put the "big picture" on the front pages of every tabloid of the "perp-walk" and the confiscated stash ... you know the pictures ...

http://www.keysso.net/images/Crime_report/2007/08222007-sw_kv.jpg

... insert contraband labor merchants and their property ...

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_228/out.gif

... and the illegals will go home the same way and for the same reasons ...

The best way they can because there's a better deal elsewhere ...

.... and after they clean-up 80% of their own mess ...

Get rid of whatever else is left ...

Why do for them what they will eagerly do for themselves ...

... and our own unemployment numbers will play its part ... folks aren't coming here for jobs that ain't there ...

but ..

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[RonnieX]

If you "pop" the employers ... contraband labor merchants and those who create every loophole they can to to bring cheap labor to our shores at the cost of wage earning, home grown tax payers ...

Treat them like dope pushers ...

Close them down ...

Confiscate their ill gotten property ...

Throw them in jail ...

Take their money ...

Take their stash ...

... and put the "big picture" on the front pages of every tabloid of the "perp-walk" and the confiscated stash ... you know the pictures ...

http://www.keysso.net/images/Crime_report/2007/08222007-sw_kv.jpg

... insert contraband labor merchants and their property ...

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_228/out.gif

... and the illegals will go home the same way and for the same reasons ...

The best way they can because there's a better deal elsewhere ...

.... and after they clean-up 80% of their own mess ...

Get rid of whatever else is left ...

Why do for them what they will eagerly do for themselves ...

... and our own unemployment numbers will play its part ... folks aren't coming here for jobs that ain't there ...

but ..

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:


Ok dough boy, how do we get that done. We also need to include the H1B visas. The reps in my area seem to be too busy with other issues to even return a note, email, or phone call. I believe this is the most important issue facing us today.

[Glennok]

Another reason why spending trillions on healthcare is not a good idea right now.

Soaring deficit may defy forecasts

By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Stagnant unemployment, shrinking tax revenue and a struggling economy threaten to quadruple the size of last year's federal budget deficit, raising more questions about the timing of costly proposals to overhaul health care.

As the White House and Congressional Budget Office (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Government+Bodies/Congressional+Budget+Office) (CBO) prepare to release new deficit estimates this month, several economists say the news is likely to be as bad as or worse than forecasts.

"This is going to be a very depressing outlook," predicts former CBO director Douglas Holtz-Eakin, top adviser to Republican John McCain (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Politicians,+Government+Officials,+Strategists/U.S.+Senators/John+McCain) in last year's presidential election. "They have just a nightmare in terms of these health care bills, which do nothing but make things worse."

A fiscal year 2009 deficit of $1.8 trillion was anticipated by the White House, $1.7 trillion by Congress. Reaching that level would produce a deficit four times last year's $459 billion deficit, just as Congress is considering health care overhaul plans that could cost $1 trillion over 10 years.

Lawmakers are struggling to pay for a plan with a mix of tax increases on upper-income people and Medicare spending reductions aimed at doctors, hospitals, drugmakers and insurers. Some town-hall forums across the U.S. this month have been disrupted by protests for and against proposals.

While revenue continues to decline, government spending is rising as a result of the $787 billion economic stimulus plan passed six months ago. Stimulus spending will increase in the next few months, says Treasury chief economist Alan Krueger.

Deficits of $1.8 trillion this year and $1.3 trillion in 2010, as predicted by the White House, would add to the federal debt. The current $11.7 trillion debt already equals about $38,500 for every U.S. resident. The recession, now in its postwar-record 21st month, has dealt a worse blow to the budget than the administration expected:

• The economy is set to shrink by 2.6% this year, more than twice what the White House predicted in February and May.

• As a result, tax revenue is down by $353 billion over 10 months, which is about what the White House thought it would lose for the entire year.

• Unemployment, projected at 8.1% this year by the White House, was 9.4% in July. Spending for jobless benefits, Medicaid and Medicare has soared as people have lost work and health insurance. Jobless benefits are costing more than twice what was spent last year.

"The deficit picture is very challenging," White House budget director Peter Orszag (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Peter+R.+Orszag) wrote on his blog last month.

Sen. Judd Gregg (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Judd+Gregg), R-N.H., top Republican on the Senate Budget Committee, says having a deficit at "previously unthinkable levels … shows an incredible lack of fiscal responsibility."

Former CBO director Robert Reischauer, president of the non-partisan Urban Institute (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Urban+Institute), an economics and social policy think tank, says administrations tend to believe that "the harder and faster one falls, the more rapid and steep the recovery."

How could anybody, with any education and/or common sense, think it's a good idea to spend trillions on healthcare right now. How about waiting until after our economy recovers before we attempt anything on healthcare.

The only thing I can figure out is the obamama wants us in dire straits so he can do what he wants in the name of "recovery".

[iron pony boyz]

People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest person with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest person with the smallest mind.
Think big anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack if you help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you might get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you've got anyway.
Dr. Kent M. Keith
American Author and Inspirational Speaker

[hwyblues]

I heard two older guys talking about the good-ol-days at lunch one day I thought this was interesting.

One was telling the other that he had a neighbor that had a drain on his ice box that ran outside but he had to throw out the water pan from his ice box. His neighbor was up town because he didn't have to throw out the water.

Then the other said his dad knew someone that worked in a chicken factory so they had chicken to eat a coulpe time a week. The other man said his dad walked down to the only farmer that could hire day labor some days so they could eat a little meat a couple times and week but was given food to eat from the farmer.

They talked and laughed about listening to the radio and how the night watch man walking the dirt roads knocking door to door telling everyone to turn off their radio and cover the windows or blow out their lanterns because of the air raids they worred about every night. I guess that was during WWI or WWII?

After awhile the two older guys decided that those days were not so good after all.

I guess there wasn't any health care back then there was not a middle case and the poor was S*** out of luck.

Today the poor get all the goverment help and the rich get richer by taking what the middle case has because of losing their job and can't make their payments any more.

Maybe this world is returning back to the so called Good-Ol-Days but there isn't any thing to return to because USA's manufacturing factories took therir business over seas or to Mexico or Central America!

http://www.dillyeo.com/Images/View/7692

[slacks]

People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you will win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest person with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest person with the smallest mind.
Think big anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack if you help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you might get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you've got anyway.
Dr. Kent M. Keith
American Author and Inspirational Speaker

Very true!

[phatjack81]

Anybody who thinks the Fed can run their healthcare without sticking their noses in your business is a fool. And you're also a fool if you think they can run it without spending three times what they need to spend.

I'm all for an overhaul, but I would rather see my healthcare in the hands of my state, not the Fed. THe Fed has proven time and again that they CAN'T RUN ANYTHING!!!!!!!!! What makes you think they can run this?????

Words in red I highlighted, words in blue my comments. This is copied straight from H.R. 3200. Pages 837 to 839.

_______________________________________________
16 ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In this section, the term
17 ‘eligible expenditures’—
18 ‘‘(A) means expenditures to provide vol
19 untary home visitation for as many families (if you don't volunteer do ya lose your healthcare or will it be mandatory to volunteer)
20 with young children (under the age of school
21 entry) and families expecting children as prac
22 ticable, through the implementation or expan
23 sion of high quality home visitation programs
24 that—
1 ‘‘(i) adhere to clear evidence-based
2 models of home visitation that have dem
3 onstrated positive effects on important pro
4 gram-determined child and parenting out
5 comes, such as reducing abuse and neglect
6 and improving child health and develop
7 ment;
8 ‘‘(ii) employ well-trained and com
9 petent staff, maintain high quality super
10 vision, provide for ongoing training and
11 professional development, and show strong
12 organizational capacity to implement such
13 a program; (can anyone say ACORN)
14 ‘‘(iii) establish appropriate linkages
15 and referrals to other community resources
16 and supports;
17 ‘‘(iv) monitor fidelity of program im
18 plementation to ensure that services are
19 delivered according to the specified model;
20 and
21 ‘‘(v) provide parents with—
22 ‘‘(I) knowledge of age-appro
23priate child development in cognitive,
24 language, social, emotional, and motor
25 domains (including knowledge of sec-
1 ond language acquisition, in the case
2 of English language learners);
3 ‘‘(II) knowledge of realistic ex
4 pectations of age-appropriate child be
5 haviors;
6 ‘‘(III) knowledge of health and
7 wellness issues for children and par
8 ents;
9 ‘‘(IV) modeling, consulting, and
10 coaching on parenting practices; (written by who)
11 ‘‘(V) skills to interact with their
12 child to enhance age-appropriate de
13 velopment;
14 ‘‘(VI) skills to recognize and seek
15 help for issues related to health, devel
16 opmental delays, and social, emo
17 tional, and behavioral skills; and
18 ‘‘(VII) activities designed to help
19 parents become full partners in the(what's a full partner)
20 education of their children;

[phatjack81]

If you "pop" the employers ... contraband labor merchants and those who create every loophole they can to to bring cheap labor to our shores at the cost of wage earning, home grown tax payers ...

Treat them like dope pushers ...

Close them down ...

Confiscate their ill gotten property ...

Throw them in jail ...

Take their money ...

Take their stash ...

... and put the "big picture" on the front pages of every tabloid of the "perp-walk" and the confiscated stash ... you know the pictures ...

http://www.keysso.net/images/Crime_report/2007/08222007-sw_kv.jpg

... insert contraband labor merchants and their property ...

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_228/out.gif

... and the illegals will go home the same way and for the same reasons ...

The best way they can because there's a better deal elsewhere ...

.... and after they clean-up 80% of their own mess ...

Get rid of whatever else is left ...

Why do for them what they will eagerly do for themselves ...

... and our own unemployment numbers will play its part ... folks aren't coming here for jobs that ain't there ...

but ..

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

I agree with that 100%, but how many are going to stay to suck on the big government teat ...... welfare, social security, medicaid or free emergency room health care. I'd guess a whole bunch. All the politicians want to do is give them amnesty then fight each other for their votes by throwing money and promises at them. Just put up the fence and deport the illegals.

[crew]

Ok dough boy, how do we get that done. We also need to include the H1B visas. The reps in my area seem to be too busy with other issues to even return a note, email, or phone call. I believe this is the most important issue facing us today.

... well ...


First ...

Stop imagining that making inmates wear pink drawers is part of the solution ...

... and all the other nonsense about fences and volunteer border patrols and all that jazz ...

Secondly ...

Insisting or real solutions like locking up the contraband labor merchants rather than pandering to the "quick fix" , self-congratulatory , braggadocios behavior and rhetoric ... and calling "dumb $#!+" for what it is ... these poor folks crossing our borders illegally are gracious and hard working by nature and will recite pleasing rhetoric ... but they do not want "freedom" ... they want jobs ...

I agree with that 100%, ***Just put up the fence and deport the illegals.

We know from experience what doesn't work ... ten foot fences and eleven foot ladders made by the same cheap labor ... for the enrichment of contraband labor merchants ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[phatjack81]

We know from experience what doesn't work ... ten foot fences and eleven foot ladders made by the same cheap labor ... for the enrichment of contraband labor merchants ...


And the experience is..... that an open border doesn't work at all and neither does short sections of fence. That's where the whole fence, border guards, surveillance cameras and other tech. come into play to stop those 11 foot ladders.

[JP Huss]

Too Funny!

:popcorn:

[eperk]

... well ...


First ...

Stop imagining that making inmates wear pink drawers is part of the solution ...

... and all the other nonsense about fences and volunteer border patrols and all that jazz ...

Secondly ...

Insisting or real solutions like locking up the contraband labor merchants rather than pandering to the "quick fix" , self-congratulatory , braggadocios behavior and rhetoric ... and calling "dumb $#!+" for what it is ... these poor folks crossing our borders illegally are gracious and hard working by nature and will recite pleasing rhetoric ... but they do not want "freedom" ... they want jobs ...



We know from experience what doesn't work ... ten foot fences and eleven foot ladders made by the same cheap labor ... for the enrichment of contraband labor merchants ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

On the contrary. Israel made it work. I have seen it first hand. Their problem is that the fence works so well it hurts the honest Paletinians who work in Israel. Stopped the suicide bonbings dead in its tracks though.
I don't get what part of ILLEGAL you don't understand. You expect them just to go away and take care of their own deportation just because they can't get a job???
Not gonna happen.

[Captain_s54]

Back to the health care issue, illegals are breaking us especially when it comes to health care. Like I have said in this forum before illegals get healthcare FREE now if they want it. We sure as *** don't.
A way to deal with the illegals is like this: This country has huge coal reserves. Build a huge coal fired power plant down Texas or Arizona way. What ever area is closest to the coal reserves Utah has huge reserves. Build a super sturdy chain link 10 foot wall all the way across the border. Every square inch of it from California to the Gulf Coast. Hook up the power plant to the fence. ZAP LIKE A BUG ZAPER. No more illegal alien problem. Rich folks are just going to have to learn to cook for themselves and mow their own lawn.

[crew]

And the experience is..... that an open border doesn't work at all and neither does short sections of fence. That's where the whole fence, border guards, surveillance cameras and other tech. come into play to stop those 11 foot ladders.

What I am saying is ...

No ...

The pink underwear does not work ...

No ...

The ten foot walls built with contraband labor to promote the contraband labor eleven foot ladder industry doesn't work ..

The hi-tech bull$#!+ merely provides fuzzy youtube images for the angry sand pounders ...

Stop throwing good money after bad and start getting serious about the contraband labor merchants ...

but ...

opinions vary ...

all blessings ...

crew

:crew:

[crew]

:lol::lol::lol: Israel made it work. :lol::lol::lol:

It is not a matter of "cheap labor" in Israel ...

:crew:

[eperk]

It is not a matter of "cheap labor" in Israel ...

:crew:

That's not the point. Israel made the fence work, doesn't matter why they built it, it worked.
Case closed

[phatjack81]

What I am saying is ...

No ...

The pink underwear does not work ...


What about reflective underwear? Then we could see them coming a mile away with just a flashlight!

[dzuber76]

That's not the point. Israel made the fence work, doesn't matter why they built it, it worked.
Case closed

But you're talking about a much, much shorter fence. Fences have to be guarded and maintained. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

I have to agree with crew, in part. Enforce the laws on the books as it relates to employers and that will help. Chit, even increase the fines. Put a huge tax on international money wiring. Ever seen the line at Western Union on a Friday? Also, let the LEO's do their job. Too many local governments with the line that this is a federal problem. If the feds won't do anything...

But they are receiving welfare and social security benefits. That's just insane.

[YellowFx4]

We don't need more laws or gov't control of our lives. We do need the existing laws enforced properly.

An illegal alien is ILLEGAL. ANY law enforcement should be obligated, not just allowed, to arrest the law-breaker. Then sort out who gets him/her to deal with.

Same with our other laws. As far as I am concerned I will support gov't involvement in healthcare only when they can PROVE to America that they can do it right by doing their existing tasks right.

Medcare can't stay above water or keep a budget. Congress will update fees when they get around to it. Sell cars Mr dealer and we will contribute $4500 when we feel like it sorry if you have a payroll to meet. We'll get to it.

Cash, In-network and out-of-network fee schedules are all different for the same procedure. Cash-pay gets to make up the difference--its called cost-shifting. Cash for my wife's MRI was $2500, Cigna fee schedule paid $250. Both fees are wrong. Cash pay makes up the difference b/t real cost and all the contract rates. Lose your ins and you really are screwed. Make it all cost the same no matter how you pay and reduce the impact of losing your ins. Yup, it will raise the cost of insurance.

People value many things based on what they pay for them. Are you more careful with more expensive things?? Most are. If you got a car free are you as careful as if you would have paid $100,000 for it?

I'm going to keep more cash--I will not allow gov't access to my accounts mess up my life. If they take too much how long before I get it back? Will they pay my late and/or overdraw fees.

I don't trust the gov't now. Why do I want them to have more control.

There will be MDs and hospitals that will be private pay. Do you really think that Bill Gates, T. Boone Pickett, Ross Perot, Al Gore, etc will go to a gov't physician????? Will I EVER see Mr. Obama at my MD's office???

[eperk]

We don't need more laws or gov't control of our lives. We do need the existing laws enforced properly.

An illegal alien is ILLEGAL. ANY law enforcement should be obligated, not just allowed, to arrest the law-breaker. Then sort out who gets him/her to deal with.

Same with our other laws. As far as I am concerned I will support gov't involvement in healthcare only when they can PROVE to America that they can do it right by doing their existing tasks right.

Medcare can't stay above water or keep a budget. Congress will update fees when they get around to it. Sell cars Mr dealer and we will contribute $4500 when we feel like it sorry if you have a payroll to meet. We'll get to it.

Cash, In-network and out-of-network fee schedules are all different for the same procedure. Cash-pay gets to make up the difference--its called cost-shifting. Cash for my wife's MRI was $2500, Cigna fee schedule paid $250. Both fees are wrong. Cash pay makes up the difference b/t real cost and all the contract rates. Lose your ins and you really are screwed. Make it all cost the same no matter how you pay and reduce the impact of losing your ins. Yup, it will raise the cost of insurance.

People value many things based on what they pay for them. Are you more careful with more expensive things?? Most are. If you got a car free are you as careful as if you would have paid $100,000 for it?

I'm going to keep more cash--I will not allow gov't access to my accounts mess up my life. If they take too much how long before I get it back? Will they pay my late and/or overdraw fees.

I don't trust the gov't now. Why do I want them to have more control.

There will be MDs and hospitals that will be private pay. Do you really think that Bill Gates, T. Boone Pickett, Ross Perot, Al Gore, etc will go to a gov't physician????? Will I EVER see Mr. Obama at my MD's office???

:agree:Right on!!
Get ready for some bashing from the local spin doctor here. It's only a matter of time.
Good post.

[phatjack81]

Go to this link and type in health care in the search engine. You'll be amazed at how many health care related bills have been introduced just since the 1st of the year. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/legislation.xpd

[eperk]

But you're talking about a much, much shorter fence. Fences have to be guarded and maintained. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

I have to agree with crew, in part. Enforce the laws on the books as it relates to employers and that will help. Chit, even increase the fines. Put a huge tax on international money wiring. Ever seen the line at Western Union on a Friday? Also, let the LEO's do their job. Too many local governments with the line that this is a federal problem. If the feds won't do anything...

But they are receiving welfare and social security benefits. That's just insane.

I'll bet the fence could be almost cost neutral just from the savings we would have by not having to pay for their healthcare, welfare, and SS benefits. How about what we pay to house them is state and federal pens? Might just pay for that fence.