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Cobra Powrpro

5K views 29 replies 8 participants last post by  Ausvtx 
#1 ·
Has anyone tried the new fuel computer from Cobra? . It apparently has no need for an oxygen sensor and senses crank accelleration and adjusts fuel injectors to maximize power output. Sounds good for engine upgrades as it takes no notice of changes, justs changes fuel metering to achieve maximum power.@$500.00
 
#2 ·
powrpro kicks it!

The new Powrpro FI2000 is getting rave reviews on the M109 site. I do not have one, but trying to get a supplier in the US to let me buy one.
It measures crank acceleration and increases or decreases fuel to achieve the maximum rate of acceleration. No O2 input needed, so simple if you think about it. It doesnt care if you have a fancy intake or a rice strainer intake, a flash exhaust or a claytons mod. The only thing it cares about is rate of acceleration and adjusts fuel to achieve the maximum rate. I am planning an intake upgrade prior to fitting Powrpro and WILL have dyno time to show results. Might be worth looking up if you are sick of paying for dyno runs with a PC3? Cheers, Craig
 
#4 ·
Check for yourself.

If anyone else is interested, i would advise them to do as i do. Research for yourself all you can about the product and make up your own mind if it is a good thing or rubbish. In this case you might want to check out the M109 site and read about their experiences. Better power and fuel economy. Early days yet and i do hope it is not a rebadged POS from the past. Time will tell. Apparently this technology is used in many car EFI systems.
 
#5 ·
Acquired this info.

Cobra's PowrPro/ How it works
I email my contact at Cobra the couple of links that are on the board about the new tuner. People seemed to have questions and he emailed me back with how it works. I hope this answers every ones questions. If not post them up or PM them to me and I will get them answered. Below is his reply back to me.

Ryan,
We’ve noticed that your forum members have been talking about the Fi2000 PowrPro and some have eveninstalled the unit, reporting great results. But many have questions about how it works, where it gets its info and how it knows what to do given that it’s not programming to a preset air/fuel ratio. Those questions are understandable and expected given that this really is a phenomenal product in every way. And how it works through its Patent Pending technology is really quite simple.

But it's difficult for people to grasp because previous Fi tuning products, even so-called auto tune units, were headed off in a completely different direction than we did with the PowrPro. With the new technology available to us and the speed of current micro chips, what we've done is taken all the data that you get from a dyno and sourced it from the motorcycle itself, then made almost instantaneous calibrations to achieve the best power/acceleration.

I've provided some information below excerpted from a section of a white paper that we've developed to help people understand how this product works, and why it works so well.

But remember, the Fi2000 PowrPro only corrects fuel. It does not correct poor product choices or combinations (say a high flow air filter with restrictive exhaust pipes, orshorty pipes with no baffles.). It does not alter timing. And the Continuously Variable Tuning feature of this product works under acceleration only. So Ihope the following information helps your members understand how revolutionary this product is.



What follows is a pretty good overview of how this products work, and from this the following should be clear:

This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.

It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can.

If a bike has oxygen sensors, we make use of those sensors to adjust cruise fuel. They are not engaged when the bike is under acceleration.

Make no mistake this is a very sophisticated product that takes fuel-injection tuning to an entirely new level.




In developing this product, we thought a truly intelligent system should be able to gather and analyze the information it needs to make adjustments as you ride with no extra equipment, no extra hassles. This was the goal of the PowrProFi2000 with CVT— Continuously Variable Tuning without the need for dynos.

You already own a highly accurate dyno—your engine’s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.

Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.

The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine’s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.

We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we¹re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike¹s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it¹s literally Continuously VariableTuning.

The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that¹s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It¹s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second.

When this system was still in its initial planning stages, one option under consideration was to use this data to create a new conventional fuel map similar to the one programmed into the engine¹s stock EFI, and then to periodically update it. That turned out to be unnecessary because
Continuously Variable Tuning does the same job without the expense and complication of storing, updating and retrieving data to or from a fuel map.

CVT is a continuous mixture-correcting process, not a fixed set of values “in a can,” like that of the stock EFI system or previous EFI tuning systems. Instead, CVT operates continuously, detecting throttle movement that indicates significant acceleration, and there is a threshold below which it switches to one of two other modes. If the bike has an exhaust oxygen sensor, this data typically controls the mixture in steady cruise or during slow roll-ons, and the PowrPro system adjusts this to 14.2- to-1 air/fuel ratio, giving maximum-power operation. If the bike has no oxygen sensor, the system observes the range of variation of mixture over several cycles and sets the mixture to the rich end of that variation.
__________________
:popcorn:
 
#6 ·
put it at 14.2:1 and see what power you make
LMAO
pin pointing at what rpm and throttle postion to ADD or SUBTRACT fuel is key

I have been in many oem ECU and guess what NONE of the programs work like you salesman pitch is talking about.

Since you are not close ship one to the sates and I will test it so far nothing have worked on a VTX except a PC
 
#7 ·
put it at 14.2:1 and see what power you make
LMAO
pin pointing at what rpm and throttle postion to ADD or SUBTRACT fuel is key

I have been in many oem ECU and guess what NONE of the programs work like you salesman pitch is talking about.

Since you are not close ship one to the sates and I will test it so far nothing have worked on a VTX except a PC
Theoretically it would be possible, given enough feedback information, to adjust the mixture like this. I think one of the real problems confronting the development of this is the comparatively slow injection rate. A properly mapped ECU, based on engine RPM and throttle position, and maybe mass air flow intake and exhaust gas constituents, already knows how big an injector pulse and at what crank angle to pulse at before the injector event happens. A PCIII rides on top of the Honda ECU map and either extends or shortens the injector event, based on RPM and TP. The Honda ECU already adjusts for MAF so I'm not sure the PCIII would need to. The Cobra unit would have to make adjustments every injector event, and analyze the results, adjust the next injector event and analyze and so forth, in an incredibly dynamic environment, the best you can do is an acceptable average. The problem is that adjustments are made post injection rather than pre injection. It could, and would, take several engine cycles to optimize the mixture in a static environment. In an environment where no 2 cycles may require the same mixture, you'd end up having to compromise with a best guess. The ECU internal maps and PCIII do this by mapping RPM ranges and applying ranges to their internal algorithm.

Unless they have done some really good guessing, this seems a bit like chasing rainbows.

I read on another board somewhere while looking for reviews on this product that Cobra themselves are indicating that this is not intended to replace a 'set up' FI2000 unit. The indication was that if you already have an FI2000 and have tinkered it to satisfaction, the PowrPro probably won't be much of an improvement. I think that kinda tells the story. I, BTW, have an FI2000 and it suits my purposes just fine. I'd love a PCIII and some dyno time, but $$$ are limited, so ...
 
#8 ·
Does the pcIII adjust after you have set it how you want when its on the dyno? If you run do your dyno when its 30 degrees out @ sea level then go to the mountains on a 90 degree day will it self adjust? If your running diff gas on older plugs does it adjust itself..... etc.
 
#10 ·
Does the pcIII adjust after you have set it how you want when its on the dyno? If you run do your dyno when its 30 degrees out @ sea level then go to the mountains on a 90 degree day will it self adjust? If your running diff gas on older plugs does it adjust itself..... etc.
no a pc3 does not do anything except change the injector pluse duration AFTER the stock ecu corrects for altitude and temp
 
#11 ·
bought it

I have bought one from Biker Trends for $449 and hope to have it in Aus and on the dyno in a few weeks.
Rather than criticize a product that i have never seen, or tried, i am taking the plunge and will find out one way or the other. At least i am having a go.

"put it at 14.2:1 and see what power you make"

"This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.

It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can."

Simple concept, bypasses all the a/f ratio bs. Like a 13 y/o boy, it is only after one thing, and, in this case that is maximum rate of acceleration. As i said earlier, i will have dyno time and will post results, whatever the outcome, when i get it installed. Cheers, Craig
 
#12 ·
Very interesting reading!!!

Harkon, you sound quite knowledgeable.
I have a fi2000 also. As suggested by many on this board i have mine set at 2-0-0.
Might I ask how you have set your three pods??? Just curious..

REAPS
I know a bit about injection timing and ECU's as I've been messsing with diesels for a while. I am also an electronics engineering technologist with over 25 years in industry, so I know about electronic process control. I look at how one would accomplish such a thing and how I would go about it. The challenges become apparent to me then. I think, at best, the PowrPro will give adequate results, as does the FI2000. Optimal results are reached by other methods. Of course, time will tell. Maybe they've discovered something new and found solutions to all of the challenges, who knows?

I had mine a bit rich at the Cobra as shipped settings (4.5-3-0). It ran fine but was a bit gassy, the soot was turning my new billet tips black. Turned them down to 2.5-0.5-0. Runs good there, no decel popping. May turn them down a bit more next time I take my seat off.
 
#13 ·
If the stock ecu adjusts the fuel and the pcIII adjusts it to what you pre set it dosnt that mean the stock ecu is adjusting for temp and altitude for a bike with stock intake and exhaust? I have the fi2000 and can tell a dif in the way it runs on dif days etc so to me that would mean the stock ecu isnt 100% accurate with its adjustments on a modified bike or just is not that accurate in general..... but im no efi guru, just a shade tree mechanic. I am glad someone is getting one to see what it does on the dyno. It would be nice to see pre & post install results. I do agree that it cant be perfect since it fires than adjusts but I could see how it MIGHT work pretty good, and if what I think about the stock ecu making the real time adjustments on the regular fi2000 or pcIII holds any water than their results wont be perfect either. Just a thought :dontknow:

Keep us posted Ausvtx!!!
 
#16 ·
Very cool thread - triggering my inner nerd

Great dialogue guys. Proof will be on the dyno, and maybe the track. Monitoring cranks speed pulses is very cool, and like everything else it has risks and rewards. The pitch noted above from Cobra sounds really cool, if it works. Your talking a lot of data flow and some serious math to process. If it works and priced at under $500 it is a great deal.

I was curious if it has any other input to monitor vehicle speed etc. My thought is crank acceleration is great, but depending on what gear your in the direct linkage of the crank to the rear wheel can impact the crank acceleration pattern. Knowing what gear your in would be a plus.

Also what happens if you you have a secondary ignition misfire, would it detect a slow or no acceleration at the crank and load up the fuel system to compensate? Also, trying to control crank acceleration with just fuel seems a little limited unless there is a timing option because physics is physics. Your always fighting the clock to make combustion happen in an efficient manner. That is why timing advances in some situations to take advantage and respond to the narrow window that exists to make combustion happen.

I'm not knocking the product just dropping my thoughts for consideration. Always be leery of promises that an electronic device learns. Humans still write the rules of how and when to adjust, there are instructions that the box follows. No magic just good science by really smart people.

However, I will be cautiously optimistic until it is proven out by multiple folks.

:thumbup:
 
#17 ·
Hey there Grimley, Good meeting you at Bully's. The Orange bike Brigade.....
Yes, I know that each engine responds differently to different settings on the Cobra.
I feel my bike is a bit lethargic, Decel popping ,I like, better throttle response is what I want.
Plugs are pretty new. I have had some clutch slip under hard accel. for years. I should change those springs, or the clutch one day.
Gonna tinker with the Cobra a little.
I think this is a cool thread, no one attacking another, well not much, and the Dyno results and the performance of the new unit will be interesting.
I did read that a properly set up Fi2000 is gonna be close to the performance of the new unit. But still, an interesting topic.

Ride Safe, Stay Healthy, and get to Bully's next year.

REAPS
 
#18 ·
Great dialogue guys. Proof will be on the dyno, and maybe the track. Monitoring cranks speed pulses is very cool, and like everything else it has risks and rewards. The pitch noted above from Cobra sounds really cool, if it works. Your talking a lot of data flow and some serious math to process. If it works and priced at under $500 it is a great deal.

I was curious if it has any other input to monitor vehicle speed etc. My thought is crank acceleration is great, but depending on what gear your in the direct linkage of the crank to the rear wheel can impact the crank acceleration pattern. Knowing what gear your in would be a plus.

Also what happens if you you have a secondary ignition misfire, would it detect a slow or no acceleration at the crank and load up the fuel system to compensate? Also, trying to control crank acceleration with just fuel seems a little limited unless there is a timing option because physics is physics. Your always fighting the clock to make combustion happen in an efficient manner. That is why timing advances in some situations to take advantage and respond to the narrow window that exists to make combustion happen.

I'm not knocking the product just dropping my thoughts for consideration. Always be leery of promises that an electronic device learns. Humans still write the rules of how and when to adjust, there are instructions that the box follows. No magic just good science by really smart people.

However, I will be cautiously optimistic until it is proven out by multiple folks.

:thumbup:
The amount of data and the math isn't really a big deal these days. Processing power is really cheap and easy to get to.

The install instructions for this product are almost identical to that of the FI2000R, and there's no indications as to where it will get any crank acceleration data from. Seems the install sheets aren't quite done yet, or there's a lot more information in the 2 pins per injector than I'd have guessed. If it really is using crank speed sensor information, then there's more to the story than the install sheets would indicate.

A slowing crank under any circumstance could be caused by either a lean or rich condition. How the controller would compensate would depend, in all likelihood, on what it did last (enrichen, or lean the mix). A misfire would almost certainly result in some wild searching on the part of the device, but my guess is that there are some additional factors at play here.

One would be that the device is indicated to know where the best results in certain conditions were. New adjustments would be very narrow in nature, so, I think that the device almost certainly would get better after a period of time. I think it creates it's own map internally and makes subtle variations on it continuously. 80 times a second is mostly marketing hype though, it can only make adjustments once every injector event. That's once every 2 revs, time 2 cylinders, that's only 80 times a second at 5000 RPM. At 2500 it's half that. I'm not sure if the PCIII can map each cylinder separately, or even if that's a good idea. Johnnycheese would be the expert there but if I were developing this product I would probably use the data from each injector event to develop a single internal map. I'm not sure it would be worth the extra effort to map the cylinders separately unless this were a track application, and would add the complexity of disparity management (making sure the cylinders are within a reasonable range of each other).

I the end, my best guess is that the device will give you a best results average. Using only crank acceleration really limits what you can do because it's hard to determine exactly the current state of the engine. Is it accelerating hard? not too hard? blipped at a light? being revved without load? I suppose some of this informatuion can be extracted by the frequency of the injector event and the duration from the factory ECU, but, in such a dynamic environment it makes for some interesting challenges.

I too am very interested to see how this works. I would love to see the firmware code for this to see how this is all being done, but I think the results will speak for the product.
 
#19 ·
PCIII and Individual Cylinder Maps

Yeah the PCIII can map individual cylinders.
 
#20 ·
I started a thread about this a while back, and cannot wait to see some dino #'s on the 1800 with one and to see some road time to verify if plugs fowl or anything ill to report. I cannot wait for someone here to review one I love the simple Fi2000 tripot I have but would still like this better if it works as advertised.
 
#22 ·
First Dyno done.

Well the first bit has been done and i got the bike on the dyno today. Figures are 93hp and 107tq. I have a Hypercharger and Cobra Speedster Longs with Thunder Monster baffles. Otherwise stock. Waiting for the Powrpro to get here and i will be back again. These figures will be the base line that all future mods will be compared against.
I have also bought a used throttle body and intake manifold to bore out and clean up to see if that helps as well. Cheers, Craig
 
#23 ·
Well the first bit has been done and i got the bike on the dyno today. Figures are 93hp and 107tq. I have a Hypercharger and Cobra Speedster Longs with Thunder Monster baffles. Otherwise stock. Waiting for the Powrpro to get here and i will be back again. These figures will be the base line that all future mods will be compared against.
I have also bought a used throttle body and intake manifold to bore out and clean up to see if that helps as well. Cheers, Craig
what you have is a WOT pull but what you need is testing data.
go back and put the load control somewhere between 18 and 27%(the number varies due to windshield rear end and two up riding).
You do this to mimic the street riding where the unit needs to work. so far nothing is fast enough to correct for a WOT pull street or dyno.
once they have the load set you can log the torque and hp with airfuel under accell in diffent gears partial throttle like if you were riding. this is the true test. good luck and yet still no one has brought me one to test yet
 
#24 ·
on back order!

I have just been informed the units will be available in mid August. My supplier advertised they were in stock and only just let me know thats not the case.!
Thanks for the advice Johnnycheese. He did do a run at a steady 65mph and found it was running a bit lean. I will try again after i put on a bored out throttle body in a few weeks. Cheers, Craig
 
#25 ·
Finally arrived!

My Powrpro has arrived and I fitted it tonight. Took @ an hour just plodding along and it is fairly easy. I would advise the tank is empty when doing this.
I will ride for a week or so and I believe you have to flog it a bit for the unit to get (learn?), a map for max power. Hard accelleration through all the gears.
I will do that this week and have it back on the dyno one day next week, hopefully.
Has anyone else tried this unit and have results?
Cheers,
Craig
 
#26 ·
Off Subject

Ausvtx................How is the riding down there in and around Melbourne?

My wife and I are expected to take vacation thru Aussie and NZ next year. I only see 1 Eaglerider rental in AUS. but 5 in NZ. We are doing a 15 tour and I told my wife I will take a day in each place to put 2 wheels under me.

I had a freind that lived in Perth however, I haven't spoken to her in over 15 years. Hadn't been able to get down before now.

Looking forward to the trip.

Thanks for any input.........................J
 
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