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  1. #181
    Senior Member prime45's Avatar
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    I've tried to keep out of the fray, but haven't been real successful... funny how that works, but what amazes me the most with this thread is the the huge amount of ignorance and arrogance some of the people on this forum show. I'll include myself in that list, but put YOU and Prime45 at the top of it.

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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuaneS View Post
    The OP has probably stopped following it by now...
    I'm still following it, in case somebody has something new to add. The mud-slinging is getting a bit repetitive, though.

    I'm spending some time drawing up a new motorcycle & road graphic. The one I used turns out to be copyrighted, and I don't think the club is going to want to pay $50 a year in perpetuity to use it. When I get something I'm happy with, I'll bounce it off y'all.
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  4. #183
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    MC's, 1%ers,and colors is always a hot button topic here..

    If you feel the exchanges are too much for you,then dont participate..


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  5. #184
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  6. #185
    Senior Member Gonzo1970's Avatar
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  7. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardvark View Post
    MC's, 1%ers,and colors is always a hot button topic here..

    If you feel the exchanges are too much for you,then dont participate..
    If you can read this, Thank a teacher; since you're reading it in English; Thank a Veteran! All gave some; Some gave All...

  8. #187
    Senior Member XRiderChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadstroke View Post
    legally in possession it was concealed without a permit,

    Ronald Smith, 43, an off-duty Seattle Police Department detective, for aggravated assault, perjury and carrying a concealed pistol without a permit. He faces up to 15 years in prison for assault and five years for perjury. He also faces alternative charges of simple assault and failure to abide by a permit of a reciprocal state.

    Guess he didnt know the law

    Bingo! .... it's ok to admit you are mistaken, RD. No one expects you to know as much as you apparently think you do.

    BTW... a very sincere thank you for your career of honest and honorable service as a peace officer. Believe it or not, I do admire that. Happy Thanksgiving and ride safe.
    Last edited by XRiderChuck; 11-23-2010 at 09:26 AM. Reason: additional thoughts...
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  9. #188
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    Just a remark about the "Pepsi" logo being OK for anyone to wear.

    It is a trademark, and unless it's been "approved" or licensed or you have permission by whoever owns it, it is illegal to wear (even if you make a shirt and print the logo on it yourself).

    MOST companies are not going to bother going after people, but some high dollar logo owners will, such as the major sports franchises and some of the clothing brands (why "knock offs" are illegal).
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  10. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadstroke View Post
    legally in possession it was concealed without a permit,

    Ronald Smith, 43, an off-duty Seattle Police Department detective, for aggravated assault, perjury and carrying a concealed pistol without a permit. He faces up to 15 years in prison for assault and five years for perjury. He also faces alternative charges of simple assault and failure to abide by a permit of a reciprocal state.

    Guess he didnt know the law
    At the risk of pouring gas on the fire, weren't all of the charges against him eventually dropped?

  11. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greybeard View Post
    Just a remark about the "Pepsi" logo being OK for anyone to wear.

    It is a trademark, and unless it's been "approved" or licensed or you have permission by whoever owns it, it is illegal to wear (even if you make a shirt and print the logo on it yourself).

    MOST companies are not going to bother going after people, but some high dollar logo owners will, such as the major sports franchises and some of the clothing brands (why "knock offs" are illegal).
    Sigh. There have actually been court cases like you're talking about, that have been dismissed. You are free to put a logo on your back that you make yourself. The trademark owners are not going to go after you - not because it's "not worth it", but because they would lose - unless you are using the trademark to engage in trade.

    The knockoff sellers that you are talking about are pursued - because they are engaging in trade (selling the product).

    BTW, you are also legally allowed to drink all the Pepsi out of the can, and pour your diet Coke in to your heart's content. You can even carry it in public. Just don't try to sell it.

  12. #191
    Senior Member XRiderChuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    At the risk of pouring gas on the fire, weren't all of the charges against him eventually dropped?
    in a backdoor fashion, yes they were. Actually, the WA attorney General refused to pursue the indictment. I believe if the "gentleman" in question returns to SD he could be arrested and tried on the charges..... but he won't be. The charges were indeed dropped against the HA's involved.
    In this case, at least, the "establishment" protected its own...
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  13. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdiemn View Post
    That is not universally true. It all depends on the opinion of the local dominant club. Even the same dominant club in different states may set different rules about what's OK and what isn't. The PGR back patches you mentioned? They aren't OK in every state, only certain ones. Approval had to be sought on a state by state basis, and in many cases the answer was "No".

    Anytime you are looking to start a club of any variety and plan to be flying a back patch it is best to check with your local COC or the state's dominant MC. I won't entertain an argument about whether that is right or wrong. Like it or not, when a group of riders sew a big patch on their backs they have entered the MC world. That is, simply, the way it is.
    very well put, it's all about respect.
    the Big MC's started the whole Club scene that everyone is following now.
    contact the Dominate club in your area tell them who you are and what your intentions are and you will nip any problems in the bud.
    like them or not when you start a club you are playing in their sand box and showing respect by contacting them goes a long way.

  14. #193
    Senior Member RoadDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DANANG View Post
    I've gotta admit. Were I to take a look at this forum for the first time and come upon this thread, I would seriously consider not asking for help or providing help to those who wanted it or needed it. I would be afraid to offer ANYTHING for fear of eternal damnation and/or retribution from those who think differently than I do. I wonder how many "lurkers" there are out there, reading all this and wondering WTF!!!. I feel blessed that I can afford to have such a luxury as owning a motorcycle. I have a good life (worked hard for it), a wonderful and supportive wife, a smart, loving daughter, and some caring friends. Let the 1%'ers have their life, let the 98%'ers have their life and then thank ALL veterans who served this country in a way that allows us to even have a public forum in the first place........that allows to exercise our free speech. (yes, I'm a vetern, but I honor and respect ALL those who came before me and after me). No matter what type of bike we ride or what "club" or "organization" we choose to join, respect for each other is ALL that should matter. This country is founded on different ideas, cultures, religions etc. Honor that and we will automatically wind up HONORING each other. In the end, we're all just peddlin' as fast as we can to get through this life with as little bumps and bruises as possible. I used to own a wing. Does that automatically make me "cranky"? I TRUELY TRUELY hate to see people slamming others. Maybe I should just go away and be thankful that I actually learned some things from this forum. Hopefully others have learned from my slight contribution. I'm new to this forum, but I'm not new to "life." Honor and Respect to, and for everybody. Pretty simple.
    Whoa there soldier... While to the new guy, this may read as a bit offensive (and for that we can all agree to apologize a bit)... This board has survived for many years because we are like a big family. Plenty of "sibling rivalry" to go around. There is not one of these guys that, if in need, would be turned down for what ever help I could give them. And if I was unable, there are others who have been here since the beginning, who would do the same. I grew up in a big family with 6 brothers... we argued at times too but it was always understood that there better not be anyone from the outside to try us. We "sting" each other a bit but we are still the VTXOA Family... and you are welcome to the friendship and the "fray" if you choose.

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  15. #194
    Senior Member race66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadDawg View Post
    This board has survived for many years because we are like a big family.
    yup.

    It's just cussing and discussing. It's not personal.
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  16. #195
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    [QUOTE=hparsons;3033454]Sigh. There have actually been court cases like you're talking about, that have been dismissed. You are free to put a logo on your back that you make yourself. The trademark owners are not going to go after you - not because it's "not worth it", but because they would lose - unless you are using the trademark to engage in trade./QUOTE]

    Sorry, but I need to dissagree.

    Most companies (including Pepsi, which I linked to) will allow you to use thier logos for personal use, and they basicly give you permission, but you still need to go by thier rules.

    I found several sites, but Pepsi was the most famous.

    http://multimedia.pepsico.com/public/?tags=logo#

    edit: link didn't work, but here is part of it. They are granting permission to use it for non-commercial use as long as you follow thier guidlines.

    All content on this site (including, without limitation, text, design, graphics, logos, icons, images, audio clips, downloads, interfaces, code and software) is the exclusive property of and owned by PepsiCo, its licensors or its content providers and is protected by copyright, trademark and other applicable laws.

    You may access, copy, download and print the material contained on the site for your personal and non-commercial use, provided you do not modify or delete any copyright, trademark or other proprietary notice that appears on the material you access, copy, download or print. Any other use of content on the site, including but not limited to the modification, distribution, transmission, uploading, licensing, or the creation of derivative works from, any material, information, software, products or services obtained from the site, is expressly prohibited. PepsiCo or its licensors or content providers retain full and complete title to the material provided on the site, including all associated intellectual property rights, and provide this material to you under a license that is revocable at any time in PepsiCo's sole discretion.



    also, from the governments copyright website, http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html

    What is copyright infringement?
    As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.
    Last edited by Greybeard; 11-23-2010 at 02:26 PM.
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  17. #196
    Senior Member aardvark's Avatar
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    Pepsi & Hells Angels...

    not exactly apples to apples is it......?


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  18. #197
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    From the Hells Angels website...

    HELLS ANGELS and the skull logo (R) are trademarks owned by Hells Angels Motorcycle Corporation, registered in the USA and in many other countries. All logos and designs of Hells Angels are trademark-protected
    (TM) and protected according to international law. Copying and other use is not allowed.
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  19. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greybeard View Post
    Sorry, but I need to dissagree.

    Most companies (including Pepsi, which I linked to) will allow you to use thier logos for personal use, and they basicly give you permission, but you still need to go by thier rules.
    ...
    Well, it least it's a civil disagreement.

    I don't doubt that's what Pepsi's site says. Nor do I doubt the link you provided to the HA site (I do think it's worth nothing though - for the sake of "others" reading, that the HA site talks about trademark, not copyright, or even copy write).

    However, what you say on a website or in your literature, and what you can take to court and successfully litigate are different things. The tags you provided are the author's brief interpretation of the law. The actual laws are much more complicated, involve damages, limitations of applicability, and even worse, vary from state to state.

    I maintain no one will ever be able to successfully sue (or apply criminal penalties) for someone using a trademark for their own personal, non-commercial use.

    Every time Happy Birthday is sung on a television show or movie, they have to pay royalties. Brings in Warner Communications about $2 million a year. There are many more instances though, of people singing it at their kids' party, and no one has tried to "tap into" that potential revenue stream. Because they can't.

  20. #199
    Senior Member birdiemn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Well, it least it's a civil disagreement.

    I don't doubt that's what Pepsi's site says. Nor do I doubt the link you provided to the HA site (I do think it's worth nothing though - for the sake of "others" reading, that the HA site talks about trademark, not copyright, or even copy write).

    However, what you say on a website or in your literature, and what you can take to court and successfully litigate are different things. The tags you provided are the author's brief interpretation of the law. The actual laws are much more complicated, involve damages, limitations of applicability, and even worse, vary from state to state.

    I maintain no one will ever be able to successfully sue (or apply criminal penalties) for someone using a trademark for their own personal, non-commercial use.

    Every time Happy Birthday is sung on a television show or movie, they have to pay royalties. Brings in Warner Communications about $2 million a year. There are many more instances though, of people singing it at their kids' party, and no one has tried to "tap into" that potential revenue stream. Because they can't.
    While I am not a lawyer, and certainly not one specializing in copyright-patent-trademark issues, I do have some insight from my experiences applying for and receiving copyright recognition on certain works on behalf of a non-profit.

    Hparsons is correct that copyright laws do not prevent someone from taking something that is available in the public domain and doing something with it that is only for their personal use. As long as you don't try to engage in commerce with it or claim it as your own there is no legal remedy to stop you.

    On the other hand, club colors are, in most clubs, considered property of the MC, not the patch holder. That's one of the reasons that several MCs have (successfully) sued law enforcement agencies to force them to return club colors confiscated during raids. If an MC has a club policy that states that ALL club patches are property of the MC, and you somehow obtained a set of authentic MC patches and tried to wear them around, they would have legal recourse to recover their club property from you.

    Likewise, no patch maker can legally make and sell you a set of MC colors as the MC owns the trademark on the name and logo. However, if you made a set of knock off MC colors on your own embroidery machine at home, you could wear them to your heart's content (though I wouldn't recommend it) and both the US Copyright Office and the US Patent and Trademark Office would be loathe to stop you. This kind of thing doesn't happen with great frequency as the cost associated with creating a one-off for yourself is more than most people would be willing to spend.

    ================================================== ===

    In all seriousness, all of these issues that come up and get repeatedly talked about here and on every other biker board on the planet comes down to one word: RESPECT. Respect is always a 2 way street, and I am constantly amazed at how many people expect it from the world, but are unwilling to show any themselves. I've never had a problem with anyone from any MC. Why? Because I showed them respect, and you know what I was shown in return? RESPECT.

    You want to start a new club? Have some RESPECT for all of the clubs (MC and RC) that have come before you. Talk to them, find out what's going on in the club world in your state. You think you're being new and innovative? You're not, it has been done time and time again. Guess what, you may find out there's another club that already exists you and your friends would fit perfectly into. Why the need to create a whole new club that you suddenly expect everyone to recognize when they know nothing about you? Did you consider talking to an existing RC (like Southern Cruisers, etc) about starting a new chapter with their club?

    I don't get why everyone thinks that 1%ers are "out to get you". For the most part they could give two *****$ about anyone not in their club as long as you aren't interfering with their club. Same with every other MC. The one thing that all MCs do recognize, from the family club right through the 1%, is that in the long view, ALL bikers are important to keeping our rights as bikers. Funny how everyone seems to forget that in many cases it was the 1% guys who successfully fought against abhorrent legislation like mandatory helmet laws, handlebar height laws, and other freedom killing BS in many, many states.

    I certainly don't expect that RD and Sonny Barger are ever gonna go out for dinner and drinks as both of those sides play their games with one another. But I can't help but note the complete and total DISRESPECT shown by people who want to play dress-up and ACT like they are an MC. As stated, my question has always been: WHY? WHY do people who seem to have such disdain for any and all MCs want to outwardly emulate them? You don't need to wear a big patch on your back to show solidarity to a small group of friends that ride together. You all want to wear a patch? Why not get a smaller one made and wear it on the front? You accomplish your purpose with out going out and (intentionally or not) pissing in other people's Corn Flakes. Again, have just a little respect for those who have gone before you.

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  21. #200
    Senior Member Deadstroke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdiemn View Post
    While I am not a lawyer, and certainly not one specializing in copyright-patent-trademark issues, I do have some insight from my experiences applying for and receiving copyright recognition on certain works on behalf of a non-profit.

    Hparsons is correct that copyright laws do not prevent someone from taking something that is available in the public domain and doing something with it that is only for their personal use. As long as you don't try to engage in commerce with it or claim it as your own there is no legal remedy to stop you.

    On the other hand, club colors are, in most clubs, considered property of the MC, not the patch holder. That's one of the reasons that several MCs have (successfully) sued law enforcement agencies to force them to return club colors confiscated during raids. If an MC has a club policy that states that ALL club patches are property of the MC, and you somehow obtained a set of authentic MC patches and tried to wear them around, they would have legal recourse to recover their club property from you.

    Likewise, no patch maker can legally make and sell you a set of MC colors as the MC owns the trademark on the name and logo. However, if you made a set of knock off MC colors on your own embroidery machine at home, you could wear them to your heart's content (though I wouldn't recommend it) and both the US Copyright Office and the US Patent and Trademark Office would be loathe to stop you. This kind of thing doesn't happen with great frequency as the cost associated with creating a one-off for yourself is more than most people would be willing to spend.

    ================================================== ===

    In all seriousness, all of these issues that come up and get repeatedly talked about here and on every other biker board on the planet comes down to one word: RESPECT. Respect is always a 2 way street, and I am constantly amazed at how many people expect it from the world, but are unwilling to show any themselves. I've never had a problem with anyone from any MC. Why? Because I showed them respect, and you know what I was shown in return? RESPECT.

    You want to start a new club? Have some RESPECT for all of the clubs (MC and RC) that have come before you. Talk to them, find out what's going on in the club world in your state. You think you're being new and innovative? You're not, it has been done time and time again. Guess what, you may find out there's another club that already exists you and your friends would fit perfectly into. Why the need to create a whole new club that you suddenly expect everyone to recognize when they know nothing about you? Did you consider talking to an existing RC (like Southern Cruisers, etc) about starting a new chapter with their club?

    I don't get why everyone thinks that 1%ers are "out to get you". For the most part they could give two *****$ about anyone not in their club as long as you aren't interfering with their club. Same with every other MC. The one thing that all MCs do recognize, from the family club right through the 1%, is that in the long view, ALL bikers are important to keeping our rights as bikers. Funny how everyone seems to forget that in many cases it was the 1% guys who successfully fought against abhorrent legislation like mandatory helmet laws, handlebar height laws, and other freedom killing BS in many, many states.

    I certainly don't expect that RD and Sonny Barger are ever gonna go out for dinner and drinks as both of those sides play their games with one another. But I can't help but note the complete and total DISRESPECT shown by people who want to play dress-up and ACT like they are an MC. As stated, my question has always been: WHY? WHY do people who seem to have such disdain for any and all MCs want to outwardly emulate them? You don't need to wear a big patch on your back to show solidarity to a small group of friends that ride together. You all want to wear a patch? Why not get a smaller one made and wear it on the front? You accomplish your purpose with out going out and (intentionally or not) pissing in other people's Corn Flakes. Again, have just a little respect for those who have gone before you.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
    Great post!!
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  22. #201
    Senior Member race66's Avatar
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  23. #202
    Senior Member Big Mac's Avatar
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    Is this tread still going, what was the topic.....

    Patches?

    Nobody ever bothered me about my patches? 1%ers are nice to me,.... I actually had some come to the house and gave my wife 2500 for bailing out her drug dealing step brother.... he only cost us 2200 .... he got off with drug classes, and a misdemeanor....
    Gray-haired bikers don't get that way from pure luck, if you got a $5 head? Get a $5 helmet.


  24. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdiemn View Post
    Respect is always a 2 way street, and I am constantly amazed at how many people expect it from the world, but are unwilling to show any themselves.
    Ditto.
    Dan


  25. #204
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    Well Birdiemn, To answer your post... ["I certainly don't expect that RD and Sonny Barger are ever gonna go out for dinner and drinks as both of those sides play their games with one another.'']

    In truth... I do not hate the man and would have no problem attending a beer summit with him. I am sure that we could share some interesting thoughts and stories. He does have one redeeming quality in that he rides motorcycles. But, I garrandamtee ya that there would be no swappin' spit as I do not agree with the principles of his "bizznis". It may surprise you to learn that I have have meetings with and even helped out a few 1%ers who were in need of assistance. People are people and as such they merit fair treatment... I demand that the fair treatment go BOTH ways.

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  26. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug62 View Post
    AGREED!!! Who says these other groups have the right to say who wears a patch and who doesn't!
    NO ONE!!!
    So, let me know how the fight turns out.

    MCs in some areas have taken a stand against the Patriot Guard back patch, and the Patriot Guard are not a club at all, not a riding club nor a motorcycle club. The Patriot Guard back patch does not lay claim to any area nor any state, but it still somehow offends some area MCs so in my area we donít use the back patch.

    Use good judgment; if asked or told to remove it do soÖ or be ready for someone to try and remove it for you. Most likely you will never have trouble out of the MCs.

    And as far as a legitimate MC patch; most MCs donít like wannabes as much as rivals by removing the jacket when asked youíre denying being ether.

  27. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by toboggan View Post
    Well, this one does have a bit of history. Most of the members so far are former members of the Michigan X Riders. I'm still a member of the X Riders, but also joined the GLRR.
    R u talking about mixriders.org? Nuthin but crickets chirpin over there. Why did everybody leave?

  28. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranz View Post
    ..I'm getting ready to make a run down to walmart..anybody need anything??..hot glue? needle and thread? cheetos?..be right back..
    I've stayed out of this up until now, but I can only take so much-please don't shop at Walmart

  29. #208
    Senior Member toboggan's Avatar
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    Here's a version with my own bike & road, so there won't be any copyright issues.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Great Lakes Road Riders



    2002 1800S2, Cobra Fatty Highway Bars, Memphis Shades, LeatherLykes, Honda Light Bar, Honda Deluxe Backrest and Luggage Rack, Ultimate Big Boy Seats, Rostra Electonic Cruise Control w/ switch housing by cybrhick, HID Headlight by NDAna.

  30. #209
    Senior Member toboggan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunsetRider View Post
    R u talking about mixriders.org? Nuthin but crickets chirpin over there. Why did everybody leave?
    That's a can of worms. I've only been in the Michigan X Riders for about a year, so I don't know all of the history or politics involved. From what I've gathered, though, some people left because they sold their X and didn't feel welcome in the group anymore. Then, there's a whole bunch of problems that have been developing for a long time, but the leaders ignored them.

    I've heard that the group used to ride together a lot, but the focus changed to mostly meetings. The meetings mostly revolved around raising money for the charity, the Pediatric Brain Tumor Foundation. A lot of people got tired of sitting in meetings when they just wanted to be riding.

    Some of the directors started missing a lot of meetings. They stopped taking minutes at the meetings and posting them on the website. They started censoring posts on the website, getting rid of any questions they didn't want to answer, or complaints they didn't want to deal with.

    One of the charity events the group organized last year was a benefit ride for the family of a child who lost his battle with a brain tumor. The straw that broke the camel's back for some people was when one of the directors referred to him at a meeting as "the poor little bastard that died". Weeks, perhaps over a month went by before he posted an apology on the site, but by then some people had already quit. Then, the people who organized the ride didn't think the money was all accounted for, but the directors didn't want to give them any answers.

    Some of the members tried to get some changes made, including having some new directors elected, but the existing directors didn't want to change anything. The bylaws state that the directors have lifetime positions, and the members don't have any voting rights. That didn't provide much incentive for anybody to stay.

    The one director who seems to run the show has a "my way or the highway" attitude, so a lot of people chose the highway. He pretty much drove the bus into a ditch. Instead of admitting that he wasn't watching the road, he's blaming the passengers who were screaming "TURN!". He could have had some help pushing the bus out of the ditch, but most of the passengers just walked away.
    Great Lakes Road Riders



    2002 1800S2, Cobra Fatty Highway Bars, Memphis Shades, LeatherLykes, Honda Light Bar, Honda Deluxe Backrest and Luggage Rack, Ultimate Big Boy Seats, Rostra Electonic Cruise Control w/ switch housing by cybrhick, HID Headlight by NDAna.

  31. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by toboggan View Post
    Here's a version with my own bike & road, so there won't be any copyright issues.
    And that scoot looks more like an X than the original!

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