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Car Tire Failure

10K views 107 replies 29 participants last post by  maurice1 
#1 ·
Anybody here ever have a car tire failure on their bike??
Tell us about it.
 
#52 ·
Wouldn't know - after over a year of research I decided to never put a CT on my bike.

CT's are made for cars. MT's are made for bikes. They are completely different animals.

People can ride whatever they like - it's their choice - make sure you ride what you want.

It's like helmets, is your head worth more than a $50 helmet? Mine is.
I want to be as safe and protected as I can on a bike.

OK
 
#55 ·
A tire that offers 79.5 % less grip in a corner, when it is needed most, than it does in the straights, when it is least needed.......could be considered be a "downside" :lol:

And how much grip do you lose when you lean your little MT over on it's little side.
None. Actually gain grip:

"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber). On a motorcycle at highway speeds, maximum cornering force can be generated even when the front wheel is pointed virtually straight ahead, rather than when it is turned. Lean angle takes the place of steering effort, and since the inner edge of the tire is spinning at a lower RPM (revolutions per minute) than the center of the tire, the bike is pulled in the direction of lean. This is why the surface of a motorcycle tire feel can feel "powdery" after a series of turns, unlike a car tire which just heats up or shears the tread off completely in tiny "beach-like" patterns."

"
A myth exists that leaning a motorcycle reduces the cornering grip (friction) of the tires. Notice that the mass of the vehicle does not change—if it weighed 600 lbs. on a straightaway, it still weighs 600 lbs. in a curve. However, gravity works in corners to help us out. Friction is actually increased when g-forces come into play. Camber thrust and total grip is also affected by centrifugal force as the motorcycle leans when going around a corner. Cornering causes centrifugal force to press the tires downward into the asphalt, compressing both the front and rear suspension springs, reducing ground clearance. Although reduced ground clearance can possibly cause the footpeg (or some other part) to scrape the ground. As long as there is tire tread touching the ground, without some other part of the bike disrupting tire contact, then the motorbike will still produce full cornering grip. The harder a rubber tire is squished into the ground, the more grip it produces. Camber thrust literally compresses the motorcycle tire as the rubber tries to roll under the wheel rim. Cars can't do this trick since the inside tires lose as much grip as the outside tires gain. Traditional car suspensions lose camber thrust completely in turns. The faster a motorbike rider goes through the same turn, the more grip he has to work with (until the bike drags). At a 45 degree lean angle, a motorcycle has nearly 50% more "weight" pressing the tires into the pavement, and thus benefits from nearly 50% more grip than it does when it is vertical, thanks to centrifugal force and camber thrust."

http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%20Wheeled%20Physics.htm



 
#56 ·
In a previous post I stated there were no negative issues with riding CT...I still don't know of any but I feel like I should have went into more detail about what getting use to it meant to me....so here's my 2cts worth....

Check out this site, lots of good info without any nay-saying....

http://mcdarksiders.forumotion.com/

This is a link to an interactive size chart....

http://ejelta.com/tiresize/index.htm...el=&maxdelta=2

The differences that I felt when I went to the darkside was the tire wants to ever so slightly snap back a little and get to the flat part when coming off the lean but it was very easy to get use to i dont even feel it now. The other thing is it seems to want to track the ridges in the road a little more than a MT does, again this was very easy for me to get use to. Some say you have counter steer slightly more in a turn but i don't feel that. I personally love riding on the Darkside. I do a lot of mountain twisties and highway riding and the CT handles like a dream on both.

I can't speak to design compromises as I am not an engineer. All I had to go on when making my decision to go dark was info posted by other riders who have been riding CT's for years.

Hope this helps, Ride safe...
Depends on tire choice in my opinion. I've experienced the above as well, but not on the current ct.

Maurice
 
#57 ·
None. Actually gain grip:

"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber). On a motorcycle at highway speeds, maximum cornering force can be generated even when the front wheel is pointed virtually straight ahead, rather than when it is turned. Lean angle takes the place of steering effort, and since the inner edge of the tire is spinning at a lower RPM (revolutions per minute) than the center of the tire, the bike is pulled in the direction of lean. This is why the surface of a motorcycle tire feel can feel "powdery" after a series of turns, unlike a car tire which just heats up or shears the tread off completely in tiny "beach-like" patterns."

"
A myth exists that leaning a motorcycle reduces the cornering grip (friction) of the tires. Notice that the mass of the vehicle does not change—if it weighed 600 lbs. on a straightaway, it still weighs 600 lbs. in a curve. However, gravity works in corners to help us out. Friction is actually increased when g-forces come into play. Camber thrust and total grip is also affected by centrifugal force as the motorcycle leans when going around a corner. Cornering causes centrifugal force to press the tires downward into the asphalt, compressing both the front and rear suspension springs, reducing ground clearance. Although reduced ground clearance can possibly cause the footpeg (or some other part) to scrape the ground. As long as there is tire tread touching the ground, without some other part of the bike disrupting tire contact, then the motorbike will still produce full cornering grip. The harder a rubber tire is squished into the ground, the more grip it produces. Camber thrust literally compresses the motorcycle tire as the rubber tries to roll under the wheel rim. Cars can't do this trick since the inside tires lose as much grip as the outside tires gain. Traditional car suspensions lose camber thrust completely in turns. The faster a motorbike rider goes through the same turn, the more grip he has to work with (until the bike drags). At a 45 degree lean angle, a motorcycle has nearly 50% more "weight" pressing the tires into the pavement, and thus benefits from nearly 50% more grip than it does when it is vertical, thanks to centrifugal force and camber thrust."

http://www.genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Two%20Wheeled%20Physics.htm



See the same will work with a CT on a motorcycle as written above thanks
 
#58 ·
See the same will work with a CT on a motorcycle as written above thanks

Not really - did you read it?

"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber)".

Car tires are designed to work at positive camber angles - motorcycles need negative.
 
#59 ·
Not really - did you read it?

"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber)".

Car tires are designed to work at positive camber angles - motorcycles need negative.

Yes I read it and it stated that the MC itself exerted more weight (pressure) on the contact patch as you camber steered through the corner.
That fact of physics will remain MT or CT.

Same patches same pressure.
'
Thanks
 
#60 ·
Not really - did you read it?

"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber)".

Car tires are designed to work at positive camber angles - motorcycles need negative.
You may have read it, but clearly, you did not understand it.
The author you quote is talking about a tire that leans while on a bike, and comparing it to a tire ON A CAR that does not lean.
 
#61 ·
Yes I read it and it stated that the MC itself exerted more weight (pressure) on the contact patch as you camber steered through the corner.
That fact of physics will remain MT or CT.

Same patches same pressure.
'
Thanks
Black Line Font Hand Monochrome
Again, a CT is not designed for negative camber.
 
#63 ·
You may have read it, but clearly, you did not understand it.
The author you quote is talking about a tire that leans while on a bike, and comparing it to a tire ON A CAR that does not lean.

Exactly a car tire on a car does not lean to turn ( well it does lean but that is not how it steers)

On a bike it leans and it is now on a bike acting like a MT.
It no longer is steering by it's upright contact patch.
It is biting while the MC is turning do to it's different rotational charteristics
You do not turn you cycle, you lean it and let the camber of the cycle turn the bike.

So not the CT is acting as a MT.

Easy I don't understand what difference you see.


As you wrote
while on a bike, and comparing it to a tire ON A CAR that does not lean
does not lean on the car but on the bike does

[
 
#64 ·
Exactly a car tire on a car does not lean to turn ( well it does lean but that is not how it steers)

On a bike it leans and it is now on a bike acting like a MT.
It no longer is steering by it's upright contact patch.
It is biting while the MC is turning do to it's different rotational charteristics
You do not turn you cycle, you lean it and let the camber of the cycle turn the bike.

So not the CT is acting as a MT.

Easy I don't understand what difference you see.


As you wrote does not lean on the car but on the bike does

[
Yet it's not designed for that.

I don't know why it's so hard to grasp.

Yes...it (a CT on a motorcycle) works for the majority of users does not equal "a CT was designed to run on a motorcycle".

Russian roulette is "safe" for the majority of people as well...
 
#65 ·
Yet it's not designed for that.

I don't know why it's so hard to grasp.

Yes...it (a CT on a motorcycle) works for the majority of users does not equal "a CT was designed to run on a motorcycle".

Russian roulette is "safe" for the majority of people as well...

I NEVER wrote that it was designed for that/
I just pointed out that it will work just fine, the physics take care of most concerns.
We KNOW it works.

I do not beieve Russian roulette is safe, sooner or latter you will loose not so for using a slightly different tire.

But the good thing is you do not have to use it, use what you want just butt out of other conversations.
 
#67 ·
you do realize that it is often practice to put in some negative camber in a car and race cars ALWAYS add negative camber
Race car tires are different from regular car tires and what is the primary reason they do that?
Aren't Oval race tracks sloped? That is, the inside of a track is lower than the outside.
 
#68 ·
Race car tires are different from regular car tires and what is the primary reason they do that?
Aren't Oval race tracks sloped? That is, the inside of a track is lower than the outside.

Race car tires are thin with little "tread" only 5/32 v 11/32 for street tires.
And of course compound made to "bite" at the race Temp.
Very thin sidewall.

Some tracks are banked a lot, most banked less, some flat.
Road courses for instance will have turns banked, flat, and even negative banked.

They camber them so in the turn they "straighten" up, are flatter for the bite in the turn.
Of course 3degrees negative going into a turn will probably end up to be 3 or5 degrees positive with cornering forces.
For circle turns they set front and rear camber as much negative as they can get away with and positive on the inside tires.
 
#69 ·
I NEVER wrote that it was designed for that/
I just pointed out that it will work just fine, the physics take care of most concerns.
We KNOW it works.

I do not beieve Russian roulette is safe, sooner or latter you will loose not so for using a slightly different tire.

But the good thing is you do not have to use it, use what you want just butt out of other conversations.
Wow...bad form...

The reason I posted was to share knowledge and correct hearsay from facts.

A CT does NOT behave like a MT does in a corner.

Yes, it will work - but it is not the same - can't be - it wasn't designed for it.

And yes you can "lose" for using a CT on a motorcycle. It has happened. Yes...you can also lose with a MT.

Everyone should do their own research and everyone is entitled to an opinion - you don't have to agree with it.
 
#70 ·
Wow...bad form...

The reason I posted was to share knowledge and correct hearsay from facts.

A CT does NOT behave like a MT does in a corner.

Yes, it will work - but it is not the same - can't be - it wasn't designed for it.

And yes you can "lose" for using a CT on a motorcycle. It has happened. Yes...you can also lose with a MT.

Everyone should do their own research and everyone is entitled to an opinion - you don't have to agree with it.

Sure it will, I've used one for 30K miles and scraped the floorboards in many turns.

It bites just fine, at least as good as the OEM tire that came one these beasts.

No hearsay just fact.
 
#71 ·
Wow...bad form...

The reason I posted was to share knowledge and correct hearsay from facts.
I agree with you on the first part. Just because you have chosen different conclusions doesn't mean you aren't welcome to discuss a topic.

But as for the second part... "share knowledge and correct hearsay from facts".... well, you are missing the mark. Let's just review your comments and find where they erred:

You provided a quote that is fine, so long as you apply ALL the context as written:
"Motorcycle tires operate at ultra-high negative camber angles ("good" camber), while most car tires have poor-quality suspensions that tip over and force the tires to work at positive camber angles ("bad" camber)".
Okay... so car tires in car applications are put at a cornering disadvantage because they have to deal with "bad camber". Agreed.

But you make the leap:
Car tires are designed to work at positive camber angles - motorcycles need negative.
You are mis-stating the fact. It would be more correct to say car tires are designed to TOLERATE and/or OVERCOME the disadvantage of "bad camber".
In no way can you make the leap that negative camber is a bad thing, and/or outside of the design range for a car tire. That claim isn't supported in the least by the facts you've cited.
 
#72 ·
I agree with you on the first part. Just because you have chosen different conclusions doesn't mean you aren't welcome to discuss a topic.

But as for the second part... "share knowledge and correct hearsay from facts".... well, you are missing the mark. Let's just review your comments and find where they erred:

You provided a quote that is fine, so long as you apply ALL the context as written:


Okay... so car tires in car applications are put at a cornering disadvantage because they have to deal with "bad camber". Agreed.

But you make the leap:


You are mis-stating the fact. It would be more correct to say car tires are designed to TOLERATE and/or OVERCOME the disadvantage of "bad camber".
In no way can you make the leap that negative camber is a bad thing, and/or outside of the design range for a car tire. That claim isn't supported in the least by the facts you've cited.

I agree with that, thought about it after that it was a "leap" as well...
 
#73 ·
I agree with that, thought about it after that it was a "leap" as well...
Thanks for having an opposing viewpoint, and still disagreeing in a generally civil way.

And if some of my rebuttal comments were past the line for civil discourse, then I apologize.
(Or, we could just blame my low-traction motorcycle tire that didn't brake well enough once I knew I'd over-cooked the corner. :D)
 
#76 ·
Depends on tire choice in my opinion. I've experienced the above as well, but not on the current ct.

Maurice
I'm sure you are right....In about 30k miles I'm going to try a diferrent one.:mrgreen:
 
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