Harley Horn electrical question
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  1. #1
    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Default Harley Horn electrical question

    I'm doing a mod where I replace my stock horn with the 'cow bell' harley cover on the left side of the engine. I read wanted to replace the stock horn with something better and found Stebel makes a replacement horn to fit inside the 'cow bell'.

    My question now is; "Will this Stebel horn work with the VTX wiring and horn switch or does Harley have something special about it that would not allow a direct replacement using this horn?"

    Here's the horn I'm talking about:

    [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Stebel-Harley-Replacement-Horn-Tone/dp/B002CJJQX4[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002CJJQX4/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=15684181&s=automotive"][/ame]
    DESCRIPTION TM 80/1 high/low tone TM 80/2
    Part number 11451122 / 11451222 11452122 (11452124 box)
    Nominal current 12 o 24 Volts

    Stebel is located in Italy.


    I would think this would just plug and play with no issues, I just don't want to burn out my horn switch so I'm posting in case anyone knows.

    Thanks.





    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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    Senior Member twin1300's Avatar
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    That's because the HD one leaks oil!!! LOL, I am sorry I had to say this!!!!



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    Senior Member dirtdobber's Avatar
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    It depends on the draw. Since so much comes through the starter switch I would consider a relay. that would be about it. you could still use the honda connection for the horn but for a trigger only.
    just a thought
    In God we Trust


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    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Red face Need more 'spla-nin' please

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtdobber View Post
    It depends on the draw
    . Since so much comes through the starter switch I would consider a relay. that would be about it. you could still use the honda connection for the horn but for a trigger only.
    just a thought

    Draw?
    "Trigger?"

    Please pardon my guessing:

    I guess the "draw" is the amps??? I don't own an amp tester but what is that going to do for me anyway (knowing the draw?).

    I suppose if I knew the stock amps of the stock horn I can compare and see if this new horn draws more amps? If they are the same it's all good????


    If it draws more amps do I simply buy a relay rated for those amps?

    Does the relay make the horn safe then to hook up to stock wires?

    Not sure what is meant at all by "Trigger" or what the starter switch has to do with the horn button???

    ME BRAIN 'ERTS!!!

    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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    USE your factory wiring as a TRIGGER CIRCUIT ONLY...PUT A RELAY IN THE CUIRICT.......Get your horn power straight from the battery...THAT is what i did...in fact the OEM horn is still on the bike and functional with the STEBEL NAUTALIS...YES ITS LOUD............ESKIMO

  7. #6
    Senior Member dirtdobber's Avatar
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    Using the factory wiring as a trigger only implies that you are going to use the hot (positive) as a starting point to the relay. When you push the horn button it sends a electrical current to the relay which will cause the relay to close and get it's power from the battery. It triggers the relay.
    Since you will be using a single horn use this

    and forget about the connection to the 2 horns. red representing hot/positive; green for ground.
    That's about it
    In God we Trust


  8. #7
    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Default Learn somthing new every day. . .

    Thanks!

    I'm totally over my head with trying to read a wire diagram, so forgive the questions :

    Looks like I need a 4 terminal relay but not sure what amp rating to buy?

    Also don't know what gauge wire to buy?

    In the diagram it shows a 15 amp fuse somewhere along the line to terminal 30/51. I guess they sell fuses that mount in the wire?

    OK, the OEM hot wire (lime green line in diagram) goes from button to terminal 86, Where does the ground wire from the horn switch connect to, the ground wire shown on 85?


    The ground line from the horn (green line in diagram) shows going somewhere, so does this mean any ground on the bike or ??

    I'd understand if you guys just leave me hangin 'cuz I'm dumber than a rock.


    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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    Senior Member tiny2709's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by House O' Pain View Post
    Thanks!

    I'm totally over my head with trying to read a wire diagram, so forgive the questions :

    Looks like I need a 4 terminal relay but not sure what amp rating to buy?

    Also don't know what gauge wire to buy?

    In the diagram it shows a 15 amp fuse somewhere along the line to terminal 30/51. I guess they sell fuses that mount in the wire?

    OK, the OEM hot wire (lime green line in diagram) goes from button to terminal 86, Where does the ground wire from the horn switch connect to, the ground wire shown on 85?


    The ground line from the horn (green line in diagram) shows going somewhere, so does this mean any ground on the bike or ??

    I'd understand if you guys just leave me hangin 'cuz I'm dumber than a rock.


    To answer your questions as they came:

    1. Your relay should have a higher amp rating than you equipment, so your relay doesn't burn out from normal use.

    2. 14 AWG should be fine to run http://www.windsun.com/Hardware/Wire_Table.htm

    3. You can buy an inline fuse that you can connect in the wire or buy wire with a fuse in it from most auto stores.

    4. You can ground it to any other ground on the bike (please correct me if I am wrong, I will need to do some changes on mine)

    Hope this helps you.

  10. #9
    Senior Member dirtdobber's Avatar
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    To make this simple lets do this:
    Hot wire from horn goes to 86 (trigger)
    Horn ground goes to ground to new Horn
    Ground from relay goes to any good ground 85
    In line fuse goes to battery. You can get a inline fuse at radio shack if ya prefer with or without wire installed. this go's to 30/51
    14 awg wire will do just fine for the horn, you can get cut to length at auto parts stores, lowes hardware, opr a small spool at radio shack
    I always use a 30 amp relay. There are 2 trigger inputs on them. I will use both through time. On my bike I have my radio to 1 and my cig lighter on another. So If you only use 1 for the horn you will have another for something else. However if you do add 2 inputs you need to add separate fusees for each.
    In God we Trust


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    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Exclamation THANKS!

    dirtdobber,

    Thanks for breaking this down for me. Seems pretty easy now that I understand terminology and connections and what the relay does.

    Thanks to all who responded.

    Heading out to Radio Shack now. . .
    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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    Senior Member Pocket Aces's Avatar
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    I have a stebil horn under my swingarm with a fused relay. Do you think I could run a horn like this off the same reley? So both horns go off when I press the button. I want it loud!
    Last edited by Pocket Aces; 05-25-2011 at 01:30 PM.

    HD Fairing, Roadhouse Dooleys, Forcewinder intake, Scar mod, Ultimate seats, Progressive 440 shocks & springs, Possum Pusher, Peaceful Cruisin tank bib, and much added chrome.

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    Senior Member dirtdobber's Avatar
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    If the combination is less than what the relay is rated for yes. you could run the parallel, Positive to positive from each horn then to the relay. Personally I would run a fuse for each horn since the fuse rating may be different for each horn.
    In God we Trust


  14. #13
    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Exclamation Almost there but need more electrical help

    OK, I got my Harley Cow Bell mounted on a custom bracket I made and will update with photos and details I'm really happy with how the mount came out and how it looks on the left side. . .


    BUT. . .

    I've still got electrical related questions.


    When I pulled the electrical tape off the horn mounting wires just above the mounting tabs from the stock horn I can't tell what wire is negative & what is positive??? Both are black and one has silver dots on it and the other has yellow spaced pretty far apart. I understand I'm supposed to hook the positive to my relay prong 86 as the trigger and ground the negative, but can't tell what is what.

    Anybody???

    Any suggestions for where a good ground is on the bike?


    I thought I read somewhere that you shouldn't go from a thin width and spice it to a thicker wire, but I was advised to use 14 AWG and that is thicker than the horn wires.

    Also, I read in the Rattlebars 'how to' that a relay with 87a terminal (like the one I was going to use) is normally 'always on' and the trigger turns it off. Does this mean my horn will always sound and will only go off when I press the switch?? Do I need a relay that has 87, not 87a then?

    Sorry I have so many questions, but I don't want to blow out anything and want to do this right the first time.

    Thanks for any responses! I'm trying to get this done tomorrow.

    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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  15. #14
    Senior Member dirtdobber's Avatar
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    Terminal 87 is the output to the horn so it would be on all the time ya might say. Actually it isn't because there is no power going to it until you push the horn button. When you push the horn button it sends current to #86 (trigger) to the relay which causes the relay to close and then the current comes form the battery ##30/51 then sends to current to #87 which will cause the blast.
    dd
    In God we Trust


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    Senior Member Hans&Feet's Avatar
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    If you run both of your VTX horn wires to the relay terminals 85 + 86 you do not have to worry about polarity--the relay does not care. Yes you can use larger wire spliced to the original horn wires, not needed but convenient. Your wiring is protected by the OE fuse for the smaller original wire.

    14 gauge wire is required on the HOT side of the relay from the battery and from terminal 87 to the Stebel Horn. If a ground wire is used on the Stebel then it should be 14 ga also. Is your bracket mounted to the engine??? If so use one of the mounting bolts for the ground.

    87 terminal is Normally Open to terminal 30, but when the relay is operated the two make (close) and current can flow.

    Do NOT use terminal 87a...Do NOT use terminal 87a...Do NOT use terminal 87a...
    2005 1300c Red, Mustang seat, HK 2.5 straights. Leds for safety-front & back.
    148,814 VTX miles...​On 9th frt tire, 13th rear tire
    When you stop learning, you are dying.
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    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Exclamation Thanks guys!

    UPDATE:

    Got my Harley Horn installed and the wiring all done

    THANKS TO YOU GUYS!



    Gonna post a step-by-step of what I did, but here's a photo or 3 of the horn mounted:






    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
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    Senior Member Hans&Feet's Avatar
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    HOP---looks good! How is the volume??
    2005 1300c Red, Mustang seat, HK 2.5 straights. Leds for safety-front & back.
    148,814 VTX miles...​On 9th frt tire, 13th rear tire
    When you stop learning, you are dying.
    http://s1185.photobucket.com/user/hans1300/profile/

  19. #18
    Junior Member chhaggerty's Avatar
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    Got my Harley Horn installed and the wiring all done
    I have a cowbell on order and would be very interested on how you fabricated the mount. Looks real good though.
    2004 VTX 1300C

  20. #19
    Senior Member House O' Pain's Avatar
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    Default More detail. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by chhaggerty View Post
    I have a cowbell on order and would be very interested on how you fabricated the mount. Looks real good though.


    Anyone interested in this mod can buy a new cow bell cover at JP Cycles:
    http://www.jpcycles.com/product/3600015

    I bought a Stebel horn (much louder than the stock Harley horns) to go in the cow bell here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Stebel-Harley-...dp/B002CJJQX4/







    For my bracket I found one of these powder coated black type door handles at my local hardware store (not this exact one, but one like it):






    Looking at the side view of the bracket/handle, bend the top part down so it will mount under the 'choke' (enrichment) cable plate mount and bolt on after drilling bolt holes. Bend the bottom point inward so the point would wedge into the bottom of the engine fins. Here is a photo of mine sitting in place in the engine:



    The nice thing about this bracket is that it actually wedges in the bottom two engine fins and if you bent it enough, there is tension when you mount the top bracket so your bracket isn't just hanging and is less likely to 'jiggle' with the bottom support (my theory anyway).

    Next I lined up the choke place carefully and drew a mark where it should sit by outlining the end of the choke plate onto the bracket, then clamped them and drilled my bolt holes:



    It actually didn't line up exactly centered as you would expect, but this is where it sat centered between the engine 'jugs' so that's what I went by.

    Now, I mounted my bell, but decided to put it inside the bracket, rather than on top/outside, because I found it sits the bell tucked into the engine more this way:




    You can see at the top of the photo where I mounted my bolts into the choke cable plate. You must measure and mark very carefully to get where your bell should sit on the mount so it isn't too high and interferes with your choke cable operation and pulling the choke knob all the way out. You can bent the choke mount up a bit so it will clear your cow bell cover and the choke will still work fine angled up more that normal.

    I wanted mine as high as it could go without actually interfering, so I marked it for drilling at that place on the bracket. Because my bracket surface is bent, I needed to bend my bottom bell tab to meet it so the bell would sit level, not bent down.

    To be on the safe side in terms of adding a more powerful horn I added a relay, or you can always just mount your stock horn in the bell with some wire extending the wires from the stock horn tabs to the new location.



    Note: I ordered a chrome choke knob to dress up the knob and discovered now my horn is too close and the chrome knob will not fit in there. Point is, if you want a chrome choke knob, allow more room for it by lowering your bell more to allow for it as most of the aftermarket dressup knobs stick out some (The Kury knob added about 1" to the end).







    Note on relay location: I ended up mounting my relay under the left side cover. There is an aluminum Allen head bolt there that works perfect as a mount for the relay, and right under it toward the front of where the side cover sits is a brass bolt that goes into the frame I used as my ground. I made a rubber cover for the relay out of an old bike inner tube and zip tied it over/on the relay to help keep it dry.

    Last edited by House O' Pain; 05-26-2013 at 01:44 AM.
    "A man's got to know his limitations" Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry
    _______________________________________________

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