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How dare one person make judgements and name call for the important decisions in another's life. This is the way I live my life and I expect you to live to my standards. WHAT! A pregnant girl is the one, and only, to have the right to the decision. Her life, her judgement. Much the same as it is my life and my right to terminate it at a time of my choosing if I so wish. Anti abortionists get out of other peoples lives and just live your own life.
 

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I do not wish to get into name calling.. or whatever is going on

google said to " ID "
the part of the mind in which innate instinctive impulses and primary processes are manifest.
"the conflict between the drives of the id and the demands of the cultural superego"

1998, I went into a state of Catatonic... as I was about to kill myself for the third time in my life.
other 2 times, I was a teenager. causing major injuries.

" ID " prevented me from accomplishing my third attempt.

untill you have been in the very deep dark part of depression.. you have NO IDEA the mental PAIN.

a female, about to have a baby.. wanted or not.. not able to support.. or whatever the issue.. depression must be great, and very Dark.

I personally knew a young lady (16). who took her and her unborn child's life.
her family put her on the street and boyfriend disowned her and upcoming baby.
 

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How dare one person make judgements and name call for the important decisions in another's life. This is the way I live my life and I expect you to live to my standards. WHAT! A pregnant girl is the one, and only, to have the right to the decision. Her life, her judgement. Much the same as it is my life and my right to terminate it at a time of my choosing if I so wish. Anti abortionists get out of other peoples lives and just live your own life.
I think you've failed to see the counterpoint. That's fine, you clearly have strong thoughts on this. But "How dare one person", really? The argument is that one person decides to terminate another innocent life as a "get out of jail free" card. If you don't believe the fetus to be a life, then you're fine, but seriously, if someone does believe it is, then "how dare they not". If you can understand the reasoning behind the counterpoint, then you can open a dialog to it. "How dare one" simply ignores the counterpoint and makes no effort to understanding or to offering a constructive argument. In a nut shell, that's "How dare one person". Ask any mother that wanted and loved her baby and she will tell you that there is another life growing inside of her, and it is her job to keep that life safe and nurtured.

This is just my opinion, I have no ill will toward you. Everyone has a right to their opinion, we are still free people.
 

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YOU SCREWED UP! And ending an innocent life because YOU SCREWED UP is just wrong. The message is not, nor should it be focused on women's rights to terminate a pregnancy, but rather a woman's right to not get pregnant at all. Will it still happen, oh yes, nothing is 100%, but there is no one that can honestly tell me that "what if I get pregnant" doesn't have a convenient option available in way too many cases. Let's don't talk about all abortions as though they are all the same. Lets first discuss the most egregious abuses and we can argue the rest. If you make screwing up easy, well then it's easy to screw up. Stop screwing up should be first and foremost.
Just to be clear, I never stated that all abortions are a selfless act (I put it in context for when it is). I'm not prone to blanket statement all unplanned pregnancies a screw up, nor am I as prone to blame only the woman, as sex is too often forced upon them to assume all pregnancies were careless sex by careless females. If you researched it, you'll know that the term, "convenient" doesn't apply to the abortion process.

Key to the moral arguments pro/con regarding abortion is how a human life is defined, (not to be confused with a potential life) and whether the mother has a right to end a potential life. There is no consensus agreement on the morality of the act of abortion, however at the moment the legal leanings are for a woman's right to choose. I will admit my bias in this debate; I personally am not convinced potential life is sacred as nature kills whatever it chooses for it's own benefit. If one believes in God, perhaps question why this rule is as it is. I firmly believe it is better to not have children when you can't guarantee them a safe and comfortable life, and I also believe those who knowing choose to have children that will suffer, want and be without basic needs or endure hardships beyond what is healthy are selfish and irresponsible.

Just like the rest of you I have my own morals, but still I don't think I have a right to thrust them upon others and certainly not when it might endanger their life if I support taking away safe options.
 

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Just to be clear, I never stated that all abortions are a selfless act (I put it in context for when it is). I'm not prone to blanket statement all unplanned pregnancies a screw up, nor am I as prone to blame only the woman, as sex is too often forced upon them to assume all pregnancies were careless sex by careless females. If you researched it, you'll know that the term, "convenient" doesn't apply to the abortion process.

Key to the moral arguments pro/con regarding abortion is how a human life is defined, (not to be confused with a potential life) and whether the mother has a right to end a potential life. There is no consensus agreement on the morality of the act of abortion, however at the moment the legal leanings are for a woman's right to choose. I will admit my bias in this debate; I personally am not convinced potential life is sacred as nature kills whatever it chooses for it's own benefit. If one believes in God, perhaps question why this rule is as it is. I firmly believe it is better to not have children when you can't guarantee them a safe and comfortable life, and I also believe those who knowing choose to have children that will suffer, want and be without basic needs or endure hardships beyond what is healthy are selfish and irresponsible.

Just like the rest of you I have my own morals, but still I don't think I have a right to thrust them upon others and certainly not when it might endanger their life if I support taking away safe options.
Fair enough HOP.
I can see what you believe, clearly we believe different things.

Look at your last sentence and think about it. In your belief a fetus is not a life and really not even a potential life so it isn't sacred and is just like a cyst, to be removed if you don't want it. Okay that's cold, but let me finish. My belief is that it is a life and should be given a chance in most cases. Let's not argue over medical situations where abortion is a medical consideration. We can agree there. BUT, if one believes that the fetus is a life and killing it is murder, then doesn't your last sentence apply directly to you and pro-choice as well? Are you not then foisting your morality on those of us who believe the innocent need a voice as well? We don't need to believe the same things, but we need to understand both sides of a discussion and understand the positions represented to have a constructive discussion about it. You may not be prone to making blanket statements, but that is a blanket statement, that includes both sides of the discussion.

Sometimes we need to take off the zoom lens and install the wide angle lens to gain perspective. Something I, as well, need to do sometimes (y)
 

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Is a teenagers undies full of dried semen not also a waste of life? (Both for the masturbating teen, and the unfertilizing semen) Where do we draw the line at "What is life, and when is the exact start point?" Disclaimer: Yes, that was distasteful, I know. Just a point, that is all. Double disclaimer : I respect everyone else's point of view on this subject
 

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eggs and sperm, by definition is NOT life.. but joined it "IS"

as each does not reproduce. cell divide , multiply

sperm is NOT a simple form of life,, eggs hope to be life.
one sperm does not become 2. nor does egg.
my opinion.
 

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Is a teenagers undies full of dried semen not also a waste of life? (Both for the masturbating teen, and the unfertilizing semen) Where do we draw the line at "What is life, and when is the exact start point?" Disclaimer: Yes, that was distasteful, I know. Just a point, that is all. Double disclaimer : I respect everyone else's point of view on this subject
Good point. If these answers were clear, then we'd have nothing to discuss. What is and is not defined as life has basically 3 accepted positions as it relates to abortion. A devout Catholic, for instance, would take it a step or two further. The first position is that life starts at conception. That is when the sperm fertilizes the egg and the egg then embeds and becomes a zygote. The second position is when the fetus could be viable outside the womb. Some would say viable on it's own and some would say viable in any manner, so this is a bit of a grey area. There are also variations on this to define the point at which there is a heart beat or brain activity. The third position is once the fetus is born and has exited the womb through a birthing process. So, we know womens' ovum are regularly "wasted" and go unfertilized. Why is a sperm any different? Otherwise the obligation would be to impregnate a woman every month before she would experience her menses. I think we can agree that would be silly. What about the morning after pill? Is that murder? I don't know, but I, personally, don't have a problem with it. By the time we see a heart beat and brain activity, I believe we have a life. Here's the thing. We know that the fetus experiences the pain of dismemberment as they are being sliced and diced. We also know they have no understanding of it, but I'm unconvinced that is a sufficient reason to allow such a thing. A 3 month old baby would have no cognitive ability to understand it either, but we would not do it then. Because it is barbaric, and murderous.

So you have absolutely distilled the discussion down to it's finest point. That is, when can we argue a fetus is a life, qualifying it's termination as murder? My brother, if we could agree on that, then we'd have nothing further to discuss. Let's just for a moment, look at the most arguable cases, like second and third trimester terminations. If your argument is that they are still in the womb so it's okay, then my assumption is you believe a life starts only once born. We know a human baby cannot survive outside the womb for any reasonable period of time without care, so would it be okay to just leave it and, well if it survives then it was a life, if not, well it wasn't really a life? Just being on the other side of the womb, I don't believe, is all that definitive. That's just what I believe though.

What about a society that kills a baby if it's born a female? Is that right? If not, how dare one impose their morality! Even though it's common place in some cultures. Unspoken, but accepted. Is it fair to impose our morality there? IF, one believes, like me, that "life" begins in the womb, and I feel murder, and unspeakable horror is being committed on these lives that cannot speak for themselves, nor have an advocate in their mother, who should be protecting and nurturing said life, morally, I am obligated to speak up. You may find it distasteful anyone would say anything, but see how they slice and dice these fetuses knowing they feel it, and tell me it's not absolutely barbaric. If you see it and don't feel that, well then a fetus, until it's actually born is a parasitic cyst meriting removal at any time. Not what I believe, some too many do. I can respect it as a point of view, but believe it's wrong with every fiber of my being.
 

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Fair enough HOP.
I can see what you believe, clearly we believe different things.

Look at your last sentence and think about it. In your belief a fetus is not a life and really not even a potential life so it isn't sacred and is just like a cyst, to be removed if you don't want it.
NOT what I wrote or meant. My personal interpretation of a fetus is as a potential life, not a life is in line with the legal interpretation. It is illegal to kill an infant, but legal to abort a fetus. One is a life, the other a potential life. One is a part of another human (the mother) and the other is a separate being/life. Our legal system has decided a mothers rights over her fetus rules over the rights of anyone else, and I fully agree with this decision on all levels (including morally).

Never in the history of our species has aborting a fetus been equal to an act of murder, and for as much as the pro-lifers rage their actions aren't consistent with true believe these acts are the same. Women would be the first to rise up and rage if they believed abortions were murders the same as murder of infants and they don't, even those claiming its the same. From my research the main motivation for people's anti-abortion stance is typically based on projecting unrealistic morality onto others, largely based on misguided religious beliefs. Studies show
2 out of 3 women in the US having abortions self-identify as Christian, so what does that tell you about the strength of any convictions? I say it reflects how easy it is to moralize until it's you with the unwanted child.

It's so easy to get passionate when dictating how others should behave, but it has been my lifelong experience that hypocrisy is the rule in every case, not the exception.

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia
 

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NOT what I wrote or meant. My personal interpretation of a fetus is as a potential life, not a life is in line with the legal interpretation. It is illegal to kill an infant, but legal to abort a fetus. One is a life, the other a potential life. One is a part of another human (the mother) and the other is a separate being/life. Our legal system has decided a mothers rights over her fetus rules over the rights of anyone else, and I fully agree with this decision on all levels (including morally).

Never in the history of our species has aborting a fetus been equal to an act of murder, and for as much as the pro-lifers rage their actions aren't consistent with true believe these acts are the same. Women would be the first to rise up and rage if they believed abortions were murders the same as murder of infants and they don't, even those claiming its the same. From my research the main motivation for people's anti-abortion stance is typically based on projecting unrealistic morality onto others, largely based on misguided religious beliefs. Studies show
2 out of 3 women in the US having abortions self-identify as Christian, so what does that tell you about the strength of any convictions? I say it reflects how easy it is to moralize until it's you with the unwanted child.

It's so easy to get passionate when dictating how others should behave, but it has been my lifelong experience that hypocrisy is the rule in every case, not the exception.

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia
You keep making this about religion, and it simply is not, at least for me. You don't accept my morality on the subject as valid, and I don't accept yours. It's allowed as that is the state of having an opinion. The law, in the US agrees with you, but in my eyes, that doesn't make it correct. Many laws in many nations uphold barbaric practices that I don't agree with either. Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right. Either way, I do see, and acknowledge your position, but remain unswayed.

I must add that my mind may possibly have been changed had I not had my own child. That, of course, is not valid for every parent, but for me it further strengthens my resolve in these matters. I'm not sure exactly why that is, but so it is.
 

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Is a teenagers undies full of dried semen not also a waste of life? (Both for the masturbating teen, and the unfertilizing semen) Where do we draw the line at "What is life, and when is the exact start point?" Disclaimer: Yes, that was distasteful, I know. Just a point, that is all. Double disclaimer : I respect everyone else's point of view on this subject
If a waste of life were the true evil, the great act of wasted life occurs when a woman has an unwanted child, born into circumstances that most likely will drain her life potential, (e.g. have to drop out of college) her quality of life, and the life of the state/community that has to support the child born into poverty. Statistically, the unwanted poor child has higher potential for all manner of negative psychological and social consequences related to being born unwanted and poor.

Pro-lifers get hung up I think on imagining a fetus as a life, rather than a potential life, with what it can or will be verses what it is. There are entire books written with good arguments that the best parents are (Heaven forbid!) those that don't bring a being into this pain filled insane-asylum we call life. I don't go that far, but I do believe terminating and unwanted pregnancy to possible have one at a smarter time is the best way not to waste a life, especially if having a child later at a better time is sacrificed because the woman wasted all manner of life potential having it at the worst time.
 

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If a waste of life were the true evil, the great act of wasted life occurs when a woman has an unwanted child, born into circumstances that most likely will drain her life potential, (e.g. have to drop out of college) her quality of life, and the life of the state/community that has to support the child born into poverty. Statistically, the unwanted poor child has higher potential for all manner of negative psychological and social consequences related to being born unwanted and poor.

Pro-lifers get hung up I think on imagining a fetus as a life, rather than a potential life, with what it can or will be verses what it is. There are entire books written with good arguments that the best parents are (Heaven forbid!) those that don't bring a being into this pain filled insane-asylum we call life. I don't go that far, but I do believe terminating and unwanted pregnancy to possible have one at a smarter time is the best way not to waste a life, especially if having a child later at a better time is sacrificed because the woman wasted all manner of life potential having it at the worst time.
That logic is just silly IMO. It's okay as long as it's the lesser of 2 evils? How does that fly?

You misunderstand. Pro-Lifers do not get hung up on any imagination, any more that pro-choice get complacent about dismissing a fetus as a life, or conveniently imagining that it is not. There are entire books written on a great many topics. It still doesn't make it right, as there is no absolute consensus, at all, as to where or when life starts. You do not have to change your mind, but you speak from a position of condescension, yet again. You are the owner of an opinion, as am I. That doesn't suddenly make you more enlightened than the next guy, and it doesn't mean that I'm hung up on something while you are not. Ya see, this is why it is difficult to have an open and honest discussion with you. You need to take your arrogance and put it aside for a second. I am not asking you to agree with me, any more than I will agree with you. If that doesn't work for you, then I'm out!
 

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That logic is just silly IMO. It's okay as long as it's the lesser of 2 evils? How does that fly?
Who said any of it is "evil"? I personally don't project my morals onto what a woman chooses to do with her body or her fetus. You label me as arrogant yet you, not I appear to judge the acts of others who's situation you couldn't even fathom. This is the true arrogance.

You misunderstand. Pro-Lifers do not get hung up on any imagination, any more that pro-choice get complacent about dismissing a fetus as a life, or conveniently imagining that it is not.
We both imagine we are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. We're all hung up on our passionate views. I mentioned books merely to point out my unique take (virtues of childless by choice) isn't as unique as some may think, not to argue that books on something make it a superior choice.

Ya see, this is why it is difficult to have an open and honest discussion with you.
LOL. Open and honest is ALL you'll ever get from me! Perhaps it's my honesty that is so difficult?
 

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You keep making this about religion, and it simply is not, at least for me. You don't accept my morality on the subject as valid, and I don't accept yours.
The abortion debate/controversy is LARGELY about religion, even if your individual views aren't swayed by such.
Consider:
  • I accept your morality as valid—for you.
  • I accept a woman's choice/morality for her.
The difference between our views is tolerance, intollerance and judgement.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
I see this thread has not been ignored, so let me add another twist. I think the sperm and egg thing is a valid point, so both should have a rightfull part in this decision. Should the father have the right to the well being of his child. It is his as much as it is hers.
 

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Just as a side issue HOP and Harkon Well thought out and intelligent replies to each other. Maybe Harkon showing a little more tolerance, but a pleasure to read such well composed opinions
Thanks Lofty. An honest and open discussion without judging a different opinion, while conveying your own is often productive in offering perspective, perhaps, not previously considered. Arrogance in any such discussion becomes counter productive in validating one's own opinion.
 

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I've seen pics of abortions from 15-25 weeks . The doctor went in with thongs and pulled the arms and legs off , then crushed the head with the thongs . He had to pile up the body parts to be sure he got them all out . The parts looked human to me , and were alive and growing when he killed them . It struck me that it must hurt to have your arms and legs pulled off .eo
 

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Carry On Gentlemen..

as I have tried to follow this Tread.. I have found my reading skill lever has lowered over time..

you guys are doing very well.. clear and readable..

but the skill level of this thread has a grade score of 11 plus..
and way above average of spelling correctness

Collage student or better is needed.


Well Done ..
 
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