Honda VTX Forum banner

21 - 30 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I can't verify or deny that a bullet can kill someone if shot in the air but I can say a bullet does penetrate a roof. As a home inspector I see this quite a bit. In fact here is one I found just the other day. You can see that it's lodged pretty deep. I couldn't pull it out with my fingers.

If a bullet can penetrate through shingles and plywood I can imagine that a bullet can penetrate through skin and possibly bone.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,895 Posts
Pretty sure the shooting up in the air causes anything is bullchit, myself. Do people really buy into that? Are my physics off? That isn't likely to injure you, much less kill you. No more than would a bullet thrown, anyway. It's the idiots shooting "kind of" up or some clown aiming not too much higher then level that cause these injuries/occurrences.


I don't shoot straight up (or anywhere else) on the 4th or NYE, to be clear.

Now last night,...
>:)
PHAT,

This is not meant to be a dig, just a reminder of High School physics class.

Any object, neglecting drag, that is fired straight up will reach zero velocity going up and then fall straight back to the ground. It will hit the ground at EXACTLY THE SAME VELOCITY that it was fired (muzzle velocity). Again, this does not account for drag. Bullets are designed to be low drag. Bricks are not.

So, shoot a .22 LR bullet straight up:

The standard velocity .22 Long Rifle takes a wax coated 40 grain RN lead bullet to a muzzle velocity of 1,138 fps. The muzzle energy is 116 ft. lbs. in a standard 22" rifle test barrel.

With no drag, it will hit the ground at 1,138 fps or 116 ft. lbs of force. That's a lot of force for something with about 1/4 inch squared of projected area. It easily will kill a person or an animal. It will also make a pretty neat hole in a car roof, house roof, etc.

Regards,
Joe T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,875 Posts
I have to say, Joe, of all the people who might give a silly response to an aerodynamic question, you would have been my least likely suspect. Why in the world would you give an answer that bears no resemblance to the real world?

We don’t live in a world without drag. We don’t like in a world without an atmosphere. We don’t live in a total vacuum. And therefore, a .22 caliber slug might start off skyward at 1138 fps, but it’s going to max out at about 94 fps on the way back down.

So, if you started off with a muzzle energy of 116 ft-lbs, and since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, the actual energy of the terminal velocity 40 grain bullet will be 116 x ( 94/1138 )^2 = 0.8 ft-lbs.

High school physics is great, but without properly modeling the conditions, your answers might not be worth a damn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,895 Posts
I have to say, Joe, of all the people who might give a silly response to an aerodynamic question, you would have been my least likely suspect. Why in the world would you give an answer that bears no resemblance to the real world?

We don’t live in a world without drag. We don’t like in a world without an atmosphere. We don’t live in a total vacuum. And therefore, a .22 caliber slug might start off skyward at 1138 fps, but it’s going to max out at about 94 fps on the way back down.

So, if you started off with a muzzle energy of 116 ft-lbs, and since energy is proportional to the square of velocity, the actual energy of the terminal velocity 40 grain bullet will be 116 x ( 94/1138 )^2 = 0.8 ft-lbs.

High school physics is great, but without properly modeling the conditions, your answers might not be worth a damn.
I was trying to make it simple. Drag on a bullet is real, yes, but the point of the discussion was that the bullet will hit the ground with nearly the same energy it had when it exited the barrel. Not exactly, but close enough for gov'ment work.

PHAT position was that it would not be a problem to fire a bullet straight up, if I understood him correctly. That just ain't correct, as I am sure you know.

To make the discussion simple, I ignored drag. But, as you can see from the formula, it has a number of factors:

Drag = (density) * (square of the velocity) * (Drag coefficient) *(transverse area)

Yep, velocity is a big player. But drag coefficient can be the driving factor. But, bullets are designed to have low coefficients of drag. Go calculate it your self, for a .22 LR.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/drag.htm

As I said, it is insignificant compared to a brick. A brick has more mass, but if you could fire one straight up at a muzzle velocity of 1,138 fps, it would be going a lot slower, as a percentage of the original 'muzzle velocity,' when it hit the ground than the bullet.

It really is that simple. Streamlined bullets fired into the air, either straight up or on a ballistic trajectory, are DANGEROUS. PHAT does not believe, or understand, that fact.

Over and out.

Joe T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,895 Posts
Perhaps, dud, you might prefer a simple video:


Enjoy!

Joe T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,875 Posts
I was trying to make it simple. Drag on a bullet is real, yes, but the point of the discussion was that the bullet will hit the ground with nearly the same energy it had when it exited the barrel. Not exactly, but close enough for gov'ment work.
Nope. Completely and utterly wrong.

Let’s start with a simple physics review. Energy equals one half times mass times velocity squared. So as velocity decreases due to drag, there will be a very pronounced impact on energy.

Refer to the excellent post above by Vtox where General Hatch’s work from the ‘20s is cited. He says 30 cal bullets reached a velocity of 200-330 fps on the way down. The military cartridge of that day was the 30-06. A 30-06 medium weight bullet of 168 gr should have a muzzle velocity of around 2650 fps. Common 30 cal bullet weights range from about 150 gr to 220 gr. So let’s match that medium weight with a medium velocity from the range of reported terminal velocities - and hey, look at that, 265 fps is exactly one tenth of the projected speed of the bullet on it’s way up.

So, after losing 90% of its speed, you are trying to claim the bullet has essentially the same energy it started with? LOL. Sorry, but just do the math. After dropping to 10% of the original speed, the energy has dropped to just 1% of the original.

Physics. :D. It’s what’s for dinner. :thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,752 Posts
Yeah, I figured it would be tumbling on the way down, not to mention you're ascribing the properties of a bullet exiting a gun to a bullet falling through the air, all that good stuff. Yeah, no.
And the roofs is guaranteed to happen, but I again submit that---perhaps that wasn't a bullet fired into the air, but one that was fired on another, more dangerous trajectory.


If they let one go straight up, I think (generally) no worries but I could see an eye or something if someone was looking up, I guess.
If instead they're drunk and their hand ends up closer to a salute (or higher, even---especially lower) when they let a round go, well, ouch. That will kill a man. Or go through/into a roof or wall to be sure.
 
21 - 30 of 30 Posts
Top