Don't know the answer but you have my attention and I'll be watching this thread. Noises are a tough thing on a forum. When I first got my 1800 I was hearing all kinds of noises. Ended up being the "whooshing" sound which was the huge cam in this bike. Then I was hearing the valves. Noises are tough thing to figure out.

 

These engines have spring loaded tensioners and plastic guides. No regular maintenance is required. If it breaks, as you well know you're p h u c k e d :yikes:

 

I have all the other usual noises I have seen people post about the 1800 bikes.......gear whine, top end tapping, clunk in 1st gear, etc etc..Anyone know?

Getting a manual is one way of removing fears -
As for 1rst gear clunk - that's simply self induced - allowed to.
Can be totally eliminated holding lever tight to grip - blip the throttle off idle a couple times -
shift to 1rst silent - let out clutch to roll.

The only reason it clunks - hitting first on a cold motor is forcing the tranny to a dead stop
to get glued plates to break apart in Neutral.

The transmission is rolling with the engine as if clutch is still engaged with glued plates.
A followed up second attempt won't clunk.

 

Getting a manual is one way of removing fears -
As for 1rst gear clunk - that's simply self induced - allowed to. It can be totally eliminated holding lever tight to grip - blip the throttle off idle a couple times - shift to 1rst silent - let out clutch to roll.

Well, sir, I would welcome you to visit anmd show me how to shift.....no matter what I try, it is never consistent....sometimes it shifts quiet, and I am surprised...so I try and repeat the same action and it makes the clunk......not to mention, holding the clutch open and "blipping a couple times" in traffic when some moron is on your tail while pulling out? Not happening....not upset about it, I have learned to live with it......but mentioning it in the context of "noise".

Actually, i have TWO manuals for this bike....a factory and a clymers....

Had them for the 1300 too.

And yes, I have read through them.

I never saw any procedure mentioned anywhere....forums (I have been around since 05) OR manuals....but figured I would ask.

However, having the trouble I had, I have to wonder how it happened and why.


If there is no maintenance procedure I missed/didnt do, then it sure seems that these "bulletproof" bikes are not as bulletproof as we like to think.

65k miles and a jumped timing chain , loose second timing chain and loose oil pump chain seems just wrong to me for a "BULLETPROOF" design.

Considering that most of my 10-15k a year mileage is commuting and lots of start/stops maybe thats it......certainly that is harder on any bike or machine than 10-15k miles on open highway.

And...Not looking to turn this into a "why I love the VTX" thread....I still love my 1800.....just looking for "whys" as far as the previous failure with the 1300 so I can prevent it from happening again if posssible....I lucked into finding this low mileage 05....I dont like any of the new Honda bikes they have out....so I need to make this one last....LOL

 

I try and repeat the same action and it makes the clunk......not to mention, holding the clutch open and "blipping a couple times" in traffic when some moron is on your tail while pulling out? Not happening.
Actually, i have TWO manuals for this bike....a factory and a clymers....


65k miles and a jumped timing chain , loose second timing chain and loose oil pump chain seems just wrong to me for a "BULLETPROOF" design.

Considering that most of my 10-15k a year mileage is commuting and lots of start/stops maybe thats it......certainly that is harder on any bike or machine than 10-15k miles on open highway.

I dont like any of the new Honda bikes they have out....so I need to make this one last....LOL

Of course we want to end up with a solid high milage engine.

As to the clutch and traffic - it's just not wise to ever have the Scoot in Neutral - there's no gain taking it out of gear.
Rushing it into gear with clutch disengaged hot engine will clunk - the tranny as an assembly is major mass that has to come to a stop first while it's in Neutral. Every bit of it is in motion.

With clutch disengaged - give it a second before hitting the shifter.

As for longevity - chain wise or other - Oil Grade is the only factor. Measured at 200 F.
Too light a grade is less cushion on chain pins - letting metal to metal to get closer to contact.
Obviously the time on the oil as well.
But it will always be debated - so simply follow the manual for the temp zone the oil chart shows.
If 20/50 fits that zone - thats the best vs a lighter weight.

The oil change itself - Done cold vs hot - one engine is going to last longer.

 

Timing chain issues

The spring-loaded chain adjusters are good as far as they go but if you had 65K on the 1300 when the problem went down then the adjuster had probably reached end of travel and the chain was loose.
To compare apples to oranges, most cars need timing chain attention about 70K especially if there is an interference fit.
To compare apples to slightly different apples my Superhawk is also a Honda V-twin and came from the factory with automatic chain adjusters. We replace the spring adjusters with manual adjustments to keep the chain in place at high revs and rapid engine acceleration.

 

To compare apples to oranges, most cars need timing chain attention about 70K especially if there is an interference fit.

I believe you are referring to interference engines - where valve timing and pistons will crash into each other when drive fails.

Milage wise - 35k was the norm for years with belt or chain.
As dealer tech for Honda back in the day - Goldwings have dual belts -
if one goes, it takes out the other .02 later.
Watched it happen live in the shop by maniac customer revving it beyond the norm-
not a pretty site inside.
35K was about the limit.

 

The spring-loaded chain adjusters are good as far as they go but if you had 65K on the 1300 when the problem went down then the adjuster had probably reached end of travel and the chain was loose.
.

Well, ok, that makes sense and is LIKELY what happened.

But remember, no one seemed to think the noise from my engine was any different from theirs.....and the noise was VERY clear in the sound files.

So, if the problem of a worn chain cant be predicted or deduced from the sound the engine makes, how then? Just waitt il it grenades, like mine did?

I suppose that the repair costs the same whether you catch it before it jumps or not......but again my point is HOW do you know?

65k doesnt seem like a lot of miles to me for a "bulletproof Honda". Both timing chains and the oil pump chain were stretched/out of spec.

In some ways, I am glad it happened cause I ended up with the 1800.... Still, I want to avoid problems. The only variable I can see if when you do valve adjustments...I have heard that rotating the crank the wrong way results in all sorts of problems, so I never did....always very careful to rotate the correct direction. I was a religious 4k mile oil changer in the 1300....much of the 65k miles was synthetic, then switched to a quality dino oil after I suspected clutch issues due to the synthetic.

All I have done at this point as far as changing anything is that for my last oil change I used AMsoil and will from here out. Probably go to a slightly longer change interval.

 

I'd be pretty happy with 65k on a motorcycle, but my riding season isn't all that long. I guess the only way to diminish your fears of a bad timing chain would be to inspect it. Obviously you'll run into other problems doing a tear-down, but it might be worth it to swap them out if the sound is similar to what you heard before the 1300 detonated.

 

[QUOTE ]
So, if the problem of a worn chain cant be predicted or deduced from the sound the engine makes, how then? Just waitt il it grenades, like mine did?

I suppose that the repair costs the sam whether you catch it before it jumps or not......but again my point is HOW do you know?

65k doesnt seem like a lot of miles to me for a "bulletproof Honda". Both timing chains and the oil pump chain were stretched/out /

Repair costs MUCH less if you catch before it fails, always. The trick is to fix things before they fail. Right now I do not know how to inspect chain and adjusters. I will for sure find out before I hit 25K.

 

no one seemed to think the noise from my engine was any different from theirs.....
and the noise was VERY clear in the sound files.

65k doesnt seem like a lot of miles to me for a "bulletproof Honda". Both timing chains and the oil pump chain were stretched/out of spec.

I have heard that rotating the crank the wrong way results in all sorts of problems, so I never did....

All I have done at this point as far as changing anything is that for my last oil change I used AMsoil and will from here out. Probably go to a slightly longer change interval.

Well - When I see posts of noise - and the step posted was skipped to use precise listening tools to pin point the noise - nothing more can be guessed.

65K? - Vehicles with over 200-300K - timing belts / chains get changed long before 65K.
Sloppy drives only create erratic operation.

Rotating engine backwards?
No such thing as harm done in any engine.
When you hear odd statements - get them verified. There's a lot of bar stool BS that some just dream up.
If this comes from a shop - run away.
But I'll put money on it being heard from worthless salesman trying to be somebody.
This is where I step in if I over hear nonsense. I've warned salesman before as dealer tech.
I won't put up with BS.

When the engine is shut down - about 90% of the time the engine rotates backward 1/2 revolution.
What you hear then is the starter kicking over backwards at a good clip
when sprag clutch engages from reverse rotation.
I try to prevent this extra torture of starter drive & starter shutting down.

Service work requires rotating engine either way at will. Setting valves to what ever.
Rotating back & forth - shows total wear / slop of cam chains, and should always be zero.
Some slack guides use oil pressure assist to keep them tight.

 

Various other Honda's are known for poor cam chain tensioners, I don't know why these would be any different. If it worries you that much you could possibly change it out with a manual CCT from APE. Only downside is that it then turns into another inspection/maintenance item as YOU are required to keep the cam chain tensioned.

Edit: A quick google doesn't turn up anything available for the VTX. Hmmmm

 

Been working on VTX's since 2004 and have yet to see an issue with a tensioner. I have many customers with over 50k, some with over 75K and no strange noises either.

I will say that noises are hard to diagnose, especially over the internet :lol:

 

Various other Honda's are known for poor cam chain tensioners,

When the first batch of 79 750's came out - the cam chain would rip a slot out the front of engine case between center jugs.
Chains can be inspected every valve setting - not a big deal.
Use the right oil grade will make them last longer.

 

When the first batch of 79 750's came out - the cam chain would rip a slot out the front of engine case between center jugs.
Chains can be inspected every valve setting - not a big deal.
Use the right oil grade will make them last longer.

+1 It won't be hard to tell if the chain is worn. If it's loose, it's probably done. Rotate the engine and check the links, if there's damage, it's done. If the chain is snug, ride the thing.

 

If the chain is snug, ride the thing.

You Got It!
It's simply no different from when we rode chain drive - as the chain stretches -
it no longer fits the pitch of the sprockets - and it will at that point - try to crawl/catch the wrong
tooth - and good bye motor/ or good bye engine case.

It's so basic - I always find it hard how this simple this concept of chain stretch baffles them.

As an old dealer tech - how many out of thousands didn't this happen too.
It boils down to the quality of care - nothing else matters - ask Metallica.

 

Repair costs MUCH less if you catch before it fails, always. The trick is to fix things before they fail. Right now I do not know how to inspect chain and adjusters. I will for sure find out before I hit 25K.

LOL

Great theory and I often live by that -- but in this case, not true.

To get to the adjusters and chains, you have to demount the engine and tear it down. Same as if you let it jump. Its a non interference engine, so no valve damage........this was confirmed by two deales and the ex honda mechanic who bought and subsequently repaired my bike. Its a MAJOR job.

hence why I am peeved about it happening.

If you find a way to change out the adjusters and chains easily without a teardown, I would LOVE to know how.

Knowing the chain is loose is good as far as planning for a change, but it wont help as far as saving $$$$$. Well, i suppose that if the chain were loose enough it could jump OFF and jam a sprocket or something.....but the result would be the same.....teardown.

 

You Got It!
It's simply no different from when we rode chain drive - as the chain stretches -
it no longer fits the pitch of the sprockets - and it will at that point - try to crawl/catch the wrong
tooth - and good bye motor/ or good bye engine case.

It's so basic - I always find it hard how this simple this concept of chain stretch baffles them.

As an old dealer tech - how many out of thousands didn't this happen too.
It boils down to the quality of care - nothing else matters - ask Metallica.

Chain stretch is not a mystery to me......have been riding chain bikes (ATVs) for 20+ years... long enough to understand that.

Its MUCH different than a chain drive.

The chain drive is accessible, adjustable, and does not require an engine teardown to replace it and the worn adjusters.

Or do you know a way to replace the timing chain and adjusters while in the bike?

"Care" doesnt factor into this at all IMHO.......if there are no adjustments that can be made, what other care could have been given?

 

Well - When I see posts of noise - and the step posted was skipped to use precise listening tools to pin point the noise - nothing more can be guessed.

Rotating engine backwards?
No such thing as harm done in any engine.
When you hear odd statements - get them verified. There's a lot of bar stool BS that some just dream up.
If this comes from a shop - run away.
But I'll put money on it being heard from worthless salesman trying to be somebody.

I got this from the tech pages on bareasschoppers.com

"Valve Inspection/Adjustment Process
With everything torn down and out of the way we can now focus specifically on what we came to do and adjust the valves. Take a 17mm socket, an extension, a socket wrench and a flashlight and go down to the crankshaft. Notice the index mark at the 9 o’clock position of the hole. Using the 17mm socket spin the crank (clockwise) and you will see hashmarks on the crank (inside the cover) labeled “F” and “FT”, and “F” and “RT” (see pics below).
It is absolutely critical that you only spin the crankshaft clockwise.
There are auto-adjusting tensioners for the cam chains and if you turn the motor counter-clockwise it will (without getting technical) cause problems."

Here is the link for it:

http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/engine/valve-adjustment-vtx-1800/

I also seem to recall seeing that mentioend in FSM but I could be wrong.

 

When the first batch of 79 750's came out - the cam chain would rip a slot out the front of engine case between center jugs.
Chains can be inspected every valve setting - not a big deal.
Use the right oil grade will make them last longer.

How do you check the chains at the valve setting? removing the access covers for the valves only allows good acces (sic) to the valves.....what am I missing?

And again, lets say that one does find a loose chain this way.........to replace them and the adjusters (cause you cant know if they are bad or if its just the chain), and you would at least have to reset the auto chain adjusters I would think) you have to do a teardown.

back to square one.

 

Been working on VTX's since 2004 and have yet to see an issue with a tensioner. I have many customers with over 50k, some with over 75K and no strange noises either.

Well, in my case the noise in my 1300 diagnosed itself....LOL...when the chain jumped.

I still think that the type of riding is the key here.

I used the right oil, did everything "right". yet at 6k it happeend.

So I either once again got a "one off" problem (seems to be the story of my life) or riding to/from work every day is harder on the engine than the highway or backroads cruising I would bet that 80% of riders do.

 

How do you check the chains at the valve setting?

The simple fact of moving the crank - any delay of cams is slop.

 

=It is absolutely critical that you only spin the crankshaft clockwise.
There are auto-adjusting tensioners for the cam chains and if you turn the motor counter-clockwise it will (without getting technical) cause problems.".

W/O getting Technical - Now left to speculation, How is this being interpreted?

As Jon's1800VTXC has stated - 50 - 75k no issues on others using the right oil.

It wasn't stated what specific oil was used on the failed 1300. Includes the weight.
Ultimately Sad - failing at 6K is unheard of - there has to be more to the story / history of other problems leading up to it.
How it's stored - where it sits daily overnight.
It's in the same climate zone as here.

Although one case comes to mind - caught in time -
The tensioner mounting bolt/s either fell out or broke off - Unknown if someone attempted to remove / or over tighten them.
I may have to search that one down, I missed the outcome.

Sure would have liked to see the entire tear down of failed 13' engine.
The wear points exposed - from oil pump on up. That's where the facts & reason hide.
Any unrelated trash in the case. View of chains.
These details in full view would make its own manual at top of page on the site here.

No different than high HP turbo drag racing in the past - the constant quest to know why it blows up every week bending the chrome moly frame it sits in to make more HP , and taking advanced steps each time trying to keep it in one piece.
Throwing leg over scud missile is unnerving & left a permanent mark.

 

W/O getting Technical - Now left to speculation, How is this being interpreted?

As Jon's1800VTXC has stated - 50 - 75k no issues on others using the right oil.

It wasn't stated what specific oil was used on the failed 1300. Includes the weight.
Ultimately Sad - failing at 6K is unheard of - there has to be more to the story / history of other problems leading up to it.
How it's stored - where it sits daily overnight.
It's in the same climate zone as here.

Although one case comes to mind - caught in time -
The tensioner mounting bolt/s either fell out or broke off - Unknown if someone attempted to remove / or over tighten them.
I may have to search that one down, I missed the outcome.

Sure would have liked to see the entire tear down of failed 13' engine.
The wear points exposed - from oil pump on up. That's where the facts & reason hide.
Any unrelated trash in the case. View of chains.
These details in full view would make its own manual at top of page on the site here.

No different than high HP turbo drag racing in the past - the constant quest to know why it blows up every week bending the chrome moly frame it sits in to make more HP , and taking advanced steps each time trying to keep it in one piece.
Throwing leg over scud missile is unnerving & left a permanent mark.

This bike was not abused.....regular oils changes per (or better than) the manual using the correct grade oil, good quality oil. no problems aside from a bad clutch at one point in its life. I kept maintenance logs to prove it.

Stored inside an attached garage with my other vehicle at night (on a battery tender). Ridden every day unless there was snow or ice actually on the roads. And even then , sometimes ridden then when no choice. Parked outside but in a parking structure during the day (just like any other vehicle that is driven to the city).

I am a big guy but do not exceed the maximum weight capacity of the bike and i am certain there are other guys here my size.

As mentioned already, this was an experienced (20 years) Honda bike mechanic who bought my 1300.....he told me : chains were worn out as was oil pump chain....timing chain tensioners he replaced as they were worn out.....some sludge inside.....cylinders were fine....pistons were fine.....heads/valves, just fine.

The only variables I can see , compared to other bikes here, would be that I rode it every day in traffic/commuting year round, rain, snow or shine. MOST people here do not do that.

"Unheard of" or not, (I think you meant 65k, not 6k), it failed. So its not unheard of.....its seldom heard.

My 87 Shadow 1100C , the bike I rode before I got the 1300 back in 05, kept losing 2nd gear...after the second time (second, used motor) I got rid of it for the 1300. At least that bike had high miles when the 1st failure happened. The used motor was a 'low mileage' motor, but who knows. Odd to me that it failed the same way.

Same thing was said then on the shadow forum... "unheard of"....LOL ...yet my bike lost 2nd gear twice on stock, never cracked open motors. Same thing as I said then.....most people do not commute in the city on their bikes and I really do believe that this is the "issue".

That said, I have a buddy who had a late 70's Honda 750 something or another and it a 100k on it ...he commuted as well.....and never had that engine open. He sold it to trade to a bigger bike.

Go figure.

All I can speak from is my experience.....I may not be a certified mechanic or have 40 years experience in bikes, but it doesnt take a lot to figure things out when you do everything by the book and still have issues. Its either initial build/design or its the usage, or both.

Frankly, I think it was both.

Yeah, plenty of people here with lots of miles on their bikes. But lots of mostly highway/backroad miles is a whole different set of operating parameters compared to a city commute bike

I have run into many VTX riders who are not online...(I always tell them about this forum!) ..so this forum , though a really big one, surely doesnt constitue EVERY vtx rider out there. Even me, I havent been on her for a while due to work etc.....so who knows how many stories like mine go untold and people move on.

Just sayin'.

No need to defend the brand, the model or anything. Again, I love my 1800. I loved my 1300. I just do not think the 1300 was up for the challenge of daily commuting and still have a lot of miles racked up.

I am hoping that the 1800 is.

This was not meant to be vent for me.....honestly just looking to make sure there is no special maintenance or adjusting to be done to the 1800 in the area of chains......seems that there isnt....so I will wait and see. LOL Will let you all know in 5 years or so when I hit 65k again. LOL

 

Yea - 65K was missed somehow.
You definitely rode it, that's for sure.
Might be a note for those in the 32K range on up to look a little closer to verify all is OK.