[shadango]

When the first batch of 79 750's came out - the cam chain would rip a slot out the front of engine case between center jugs.
Chains can be inspected every valve setting - not a big deal.
Use the right oil grade will make them last longer.

How do you check the chains at the valve setting? removing the access covers for the valves only allows good acces (sic) to the valves.....what am I missing?

And again, lets say that one does find a loose chain this way.........to replace them and the adjusters (cause you cant know if they are bad or if its just the chain), and you would at least have to reset the auto chain adjusters I would think) you have to do a teardown.

back to square one.

 

[shadango]

Been working on VTX's since 2004 and have yet to see an issue with a tensioner. I have many customers with over 50k, some with over 75K and no strange noises either.

Well, in my case the noise in my 1300 diagnosed itself....LOL...when the chain jumped.

I still think that the type of riding is the key here.

I used the right oil, did everything "right". yet at 6k it happeend.

So I either once again got a "one off" problem (seems to be the story of my life) or riding to/from work every day is harder on the engine than the highway or backroads cruising I would bet that 80% of riders do.

 

[Philscbx]

How do you check the chains at the valve setting?

The simple fact of moving the crank - any delay of cams is slop.

 

[Philscbx]

=It is absolutely critical that you only spin the crankshaft clockwise.
There are auto-adjusting tensioners for the cam chains and if you turn the motor counter-clockwise it will (without getting technical) cause problems.".

W/O getting Technical - Now left to speculation, How is this being interpreted?

As Jon's1800VTXC has stated - 50 - 75k no issues on others using the right oil.

It wasn't stated what specific oil was used on the failed 1300. Includes the weight.
Ultimately Sad - failing at 6K is unheard of - there has to be more to the story / history of other problems leading up to it.
How it's stored - where it sits daily overnight.
It's in the same climate zone as here.

Although one case comes to mind - caught in time -
The tensioner mounting bolt/s either fell out or broke off - Unknown if someone attempted to remove / or over tighten them.
I may have to search that one down, I missed the outcome.

Sure would have liked to see the entire tear down of failed 13' engine.
The wear points exposed - from oil pump on up. That's where the facts & reason hide.
Any unrelated trash in the case. View of chains.
These details in full view would make its own manual at top of page on the site here.

No different than high HP turbo drag racing in the past - the constant quest to know why it blows up every week bending the chrome moly frame it sits in to make more HP , and taking advanced steps each time trying to keep it in one piece.
Throwing leg over scud missile is unnerving & left a permanent mark.

 

[shadango]

W/O getting Technical - Now left to speculation, How is this being interpreted?

As Jon's1800VTXC has stated - 50 - 75k no issues on others using the right oil.

It wasn't stated what specific oil was used on the failed 1300. Includes the weight.
Ultimately Sad - failing at 6K is unheard of - there has to be more to the story / history of other problems leading up to it.
How it's stored - where it sits daily overnight.
It's in the same climate zone as here.

Although one case comes to mind - caught in time -
The tensioner mounting bolt/s either fell out or broke off - Unknown if someone attempted to remove / or over tighten them.
I may have to search that one down, I missed the outcome.

Sure would have liked to see the entire tear down of failed 13' engine.
The wear points exposed - from oil pump on up. That's where the facts & reason hide.
Any unrelated trash in the case. View of chains.
These details in full view would make its own manual at top of page on the site here.

No different than high HP turbo drag racing in the past - the constant quest to know why it blows up every week bending the chrome moly frame it sits in to make more HP , and taking advanced steps each time trying to keep it in one piece.
Throwing leg over scud missile is unnerving & left a permanent mark.

This bike was not abused.....regular oils changes per (or better than) the manual using the correct grade oil, good quality oil. no problems aside from a bad clutch at one point in its life. I kept maintenance logs to prove it.

Stored inside an attached garage with my other vehicle at night (on a battery tender). Ridden every day unless there was snow or ice actually on the roads. And even then , sometimes ridden then when no choice. Parked outside but in a parking structure during the day (just like any other vehicle that is driven to the city).

I am a big guy but do not exceed the maximum weight capacity of the bike and i am certain there are other guys here my size.

As mentioned already, this was an experienced (20 years) Honda bike mechanic who bought my 1300.....he told me : chains were worn out as was oil pump chain....timing chain tensioners he replaced as they were worn out.....some sludge inside.....cylinders were fine....pistons were fine.....heads/valves, just fine.

The only variables I can see , compared to other bikes here, would be that I rode it every day in traffic/commuting year round, rain, snow or shine. MOST people here do not do that.

"Unheard of" or not, (I think you meant 65k, not 6k), it failed. So its not unheard of.....its seldom heard.

My 87 Shadow 1100C , the bike I rode before I got the 1300 back in 05, kept losing 2nd gear...after the second time (second, used motor) I got rid of it for the 1300. At least that bike had high miles when the 1st failure happened. The used motor was a 'low mileage' motor, but who knows. Odd to me that it failed the same way.

Same thing was said then on the shadow forum... "unheard of"....LOL ...yet my bike lost 2nd gear twice on stock, never cracked open motors. Same thing as I said then.....most people do not commute in the city on their bikes and I really do believe that this is the "issue".

That said, I have a buddy who had a late 70's Honda 750 something or another and it a 100k on it ...he commuted as well.....and never had that engine open. He sold it to trade to a bigger bike.

Go figure.

All I can speak from is my experience.....I may not be a certified mechanic or have 40 years experience in bikes, but it doesnt take a lot to figure things out when you do everything by the book and still have issues. Its either initial build/design or its the usage, or both.

Frankly, I think it was both.

Yeah, plenty of people here with lots of miles on their bikes. But lots of mostly highway/backroad miles is a whole different set of operating parameters compared to a city commute bike

I have run into many VTX riders who are not online...(I always tell them about this forum!) ..so this forum , though a really big one, surely doesnt constitue EVERY vtx rider out there. Even me, I havent been on her for a while due to work etc.....so who knows how many stories like mine go untold and people move on.

Just sayin'.

No need to defend the brand, the model or anything. Again, I love my 1800. I loved my 1300. I just do not think the 1300 was up for the challenge of daily commuting and still have a lot of miles racked up.

I am hoping that the 1800 is.

This was not meant to be vent for me.....honestly just looking to make sure there is no special maintenance or adjusting to be done to the 1800 in the area of chains......seems that there isnt....so I will wait and see. LOL Will let you all know in 5 years or so when I hit 65k again. LOL

 

[Philscbx]

Yea - 65K was missed somehow.
You definitely rode it, that's for sure.
Might be a note for those in the 32K range on up to look a little closer to verify all is OK.

 

[JT82]

You mention a clutch failure... did some friction plates fall apart? Maybe you had some clutch debris partially block an oil passage, which caused other issues later on.

 

[0081XTV]

Its a non interference engine, so no valve damage.........

My first 1800 definately had an 'interferance' issue! Granted, it was a much different problem. Bike had 500 klm's on it and was 10 days old. Suspect something was left loose from the factory. Diagnosis was that a piece of casting broke off the head somewhere and got lodged between the cam and valve. Result... bent inlet valves and major top end damage. Not pretty

 

[Reading Cruiser]

Just a thought but as you stated before 65k of city commutes with lots of stop and go with revving and clutch slippage will have adverse affects on any engine. It would probably be equivilent to 100k+ on most other bikes that are ridden on roads that don't have much stop and go traffic. Still sucks that it happened. If it happened to me I think I'd use it as an excuse to install an AFT Customs top end kit

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[shadango]

You mention a clutch failure... did some friction plates fall apart? Maybe you had some clutch debris partially block an oil passage, which caused other issues later on.

Not a clutch failure in so much as cluth noise......search for "clutch groan" and my handle and you can see the whole ordeal....LOL...basically it was a honking noise and the clutch would slip and grab abruptly.....ended up going with an aftermarket clutch pack, new push rod and bearings.....problem never showed up again.....that said the clutch pads didnt disintegrate etc far as I could tell, but who knows, right?

I will never know the real cause.....and I truly am hoping that this is a "never happens" sort of thing so that it never does with the 1800....LOL

 

[shadango]

After seeing someone else refer to this post, I started thinking again.

And honestly, i cant see HOW 65k miles woudl be considered high mileage for a chain.

I havea 06 sonata with 120k on her and timing chain.....its fine.

Had an 85 Ram 50 with the Mitsu engine..over 100k miles and I replaced the chain guides cause they were noisy (worn) but the chain was fine (replaced it though).....

many vehicles these days have chains versus belts and they go way more than 65k miles.

My Honda shadow 1100 (87) had 90k on her when 2nd gear went out and the chains never made any noise......

i have an 87 Honda ATV with timing chain......it has been rode hard and put away wet constantly...I am the third owner and this has been used HARD....no chain noise.

I am going to cross my fingers that the 1300 having chain issues was just a fluke.

 

[Philscbx]

I havea 06 sonata with 120k on her and timing chain.....its fine.

Had an 85 Ram 50 with the Mitsu engine..over 100k miles and I replaced the chain guides cause they were noisy (worn) but the chain was fine (replaced it though).....

The fact the guides failed / replaced proves the chain is shot - just because the chain is still in one piece proves nothing.
Every pin/bushing is slop. The chain is now longer - the guides can no longer take up the slop.
The same reason the wheel is moved back to take up worn slop.
Internal chains have better environment is the only reason they last longer.

Spend double for O-ring chain will also last 4 times longer on final exposed.
I would never use less on the R1.

Take two copies of gears - one new - other with 67k - the two gears will not mesh correctly.
Same as chain too worn - and at some point will not fit the sprockets correctly.

Same thing in reverse - people try to put new chains on worn sprockets - doesn't work - it will fail early.

For example - and very many are fooled - tighten the chain as hard as you want on rear drive of wheel.
So no possible slack is possible - or can even be moved up/down between the sprockets.

Now go to the rear most portion of sprocket - grab the chain at 3 oclock at this point -
you will be able to pull it away from sprocket - yet the chain is solid tight to front sprocket.
This is because the worn chain is being pulled only by teeth at 12 & 6 oclock.
Not the full path of chain around the sprocket - you will soon see.

If two chains were on the table - one new - one with 67k - you can barely twist the new chain sideways -
the worn chain will almost make a circle with no effort - it's shot - done.

SIDEways - against pin / bushing clearance.

Doesn't matter stage of abuse - everything adds up to style of abuse - not warmed up - wrong oil / over heating / over stressed / forcing shifts to make noise vs not / lugging / there's a hundred different styles - some are better than others.
Riding two up every mile is more work - etc.

 

[Greg Riddle]

After seeing someone else refer to this post, I started thinking again.

And honestly, i cant see HOW 65k miles woudl be considered high mileage for a chain.

I havea 06 sonata with 120k on her and timing chain.....its fine.

Had an 85 Ram 50 with the Mitsu engine..over 100k miles and I replaced the chain guides cause they were noisy (worn) but the chain was fine (replaced it though).....

many vehicles these days have chains versus belts and they go way more than 65k miles.

My Honda shadow 1100 (87) had 90k on her when 2nd gear went out and the chains never made any noise......

i have an 87 Honda ATV with timing chain......it has been rode hard and put away wet constantly...I am the third owner and this has been used HARD....no chain noise.

I am going to cross my fingers that the 1300 having chain issues was just a fluke.

i doubt the sonata has a chain. it probably has a belt. with 120k you pushing the limits on the belt. belts will not have any issues until the break. then youll have big issues

 

[Hans&Feet]

i doubt the sonata has a chain. it probably has a belt. with 120k you pushing the limits on the belt. belts will not have any issues until the break. then youll have big issues

2011 Sonata has a chain. Even Honda Accord in 2011 had a chain. I was interested because I changed the belt in the 2001 Accord. 180 ft pounds torque on the crankshaft pulley bolt...It took more time to get that bolt off than all the other work. It went back with 80 lt-lbs and blue loctite..

 

[shadango]

i doubt the sonata has a chain. it probably has a belt. with 120k you pushing the limits on the belt. belts will not have any issues until the break. then youll have big issues

The sonata definately has a chain...design change frome the 05 model to the 06 model.

Anyways the point wast to debate if chains wear out. They do.

The point was that 65k miles for a worn out chain? Thats ridiculous.

And as far as "use/abuse" ?

I rode the bike every day to and from work It wasnt RACED, just ridden. I also changed the oil every 3-4k miles.

If riding a bike every day makes it subject to wearing out at 65k miles then I would again suggest that it is not "bullet proof" at all.

Its ridiculous to suggest that a bike engine is designed to NEED to be torn down to have new chains and guides put in at 65k miles. The manual certainly says NOTHING about that being necessarym, and if it were part of the design to be so, it would be in the manuals. 65k miles is not considered, by most, to be "high mileage".

Again, we are not talking about a DRIVE CHAIN, where it is subjected to dirt, varying tensions and all sorts of abuse since it is external. We are talking about an internal, lubricated engine part with no external adjustment possible.

Sorry, I am just not buying that 65k miles is an "acceptable" point at which it would be expected that a timing chain on a motorcycle engine be replaced.

Keep in mind that it was at 65k miles that the chain actually JUMPED......meaning that the chain, guides or both were out of spec well BEFORE 65k miles......

To me, thats either sub par parts, poor design, or something.

I know LOTS of guys with way more than 65k miles on their various make bikes and NEVER changed timing chains or guides.

How many on this forum have changed their timibng chains and guides?

 

[shadango]

The fact the guides failed / replaced proves the chain is shot - just because the chain is still in one piece proves nothing.

On the 85 Mitsui engine, the design of the original chain guides was the issue. The new guides were of a different material that wore out more slowly.

Chain tension is a key factor in its wear.

If the chain guide wears out less, it keeps the chain tension proper longer, which results in less chain wear.

In the service manual for that Ram 50 I recall it having specs for the LENGTH of the timing chain......if it was within specs it was considered serviceable.

In that engine, the chain was within specs but I chose to use a new one anyways to be safe.

Do chains break due to worn pins? I suppose they do sometimes.

Have any of my chained engines ever done that? No. And that is a LOT of miles on those engines.

On the 1300 in question, the chain didnt break, it SKIPPED a couple teeth. Which to me says that the chain was stretched and that the guides were worn to the point of no longer being able to keep tension on the chain properly.

At 65k miles, that doesnt set right with me given my experience with all the other chained engines, with high mileage, I have had.

So as with anything else, YMMV. Not arguing about how a chain can wear out.. They do. Just saying that I have never experienced a skipped chain on what I consider a lower mileage engine.

And again, if 65k miles is consideredd "high mileage" enough to have to chain internal engone parts, that is just sad. People joke about HDs always needing worked on.

Well, if a Honda cant take 65k miles without needing the engine pulled from the frame and torn down, I suggest that that is not acceptable.

 

[shadango]

2011 Sonata has a chain. Even Honda Accord in 2011 had a chain. I was interested because I changed the belt in the 2001 Accord. 180 ft pounds torque on the crankshaft pulley bolt...It took more time to get that bolt off than all the other work. It went back with 80 lt-lbs and blue loctite..

Yep....I had chainged the timing belt on an ol K car or two and was expecting the same on the sonata. Up til 2005 the sonata engines had belts. In 06 it was changed to a chain......I was glad to hear that. And at 120k miles, no issues yet, knock wood.

I see in your sig you have quite a bit more than 65k miles on your bike....how many timing chains and guide sets have you swapped in?

 

[Philscbx]

the point wast to debate if chains wear out. They do.
The point was that 65k miles for a worn out chain? Thats ridiculous.

Absolute - and any Tech worthy of years of experience would have caught the extreme wear way ahead of time while exploring the engine during valve inspections.

Ever sit with the covers off a 4 color printing press in action - now that's a pile of 4th dimension to solve.
One can argue till the cows yell - Car Car - then get on all 4.
65K vs 100k - some have done it obviously. WTH is their magic?

Until all facts of oil grade that were used vs oil changed - is not good enough.
One can speculate all the nonsense - of why,
leaving lines blank of critical data - nicely done - as if they don't apply.


Quote: -
Again, we are not talking about a DRIVE CHAIN, where it is subjected to dirt,
But every detail written about it is in stone - as a simple example of chain stretch - why this is such a sore spot -
I have no fkg idea. Here - again the point is missed -

Good luck. Can always go backwards in time a hundred years with pushrods.

 

[Hans&Feet]

Yep....
I see in your sig you have quite a bit more than 65k miles on your bike....how many timing chains and guide sets have you swapped in?

Engine is original except stator.
A friend gave his son a 1985 Toyota truck, the chain/guide failed at 220k miles.
The original owner did once a year oil changes if I remember correctly. He was not
a high mileage driver but may have exceeded the normal 5k change interval.

 

[shadango]

Absolute - and any Tech worthy of years of experience would have caught the extreme wear way ahead of time while exploring the engine during valve inspections.

Ever sit with the covers off a 4 color printing press in action - now that's a pile of 4th dimension to solve.
One can argue till the cows yell - Car Car - then get on all 4.
65K vs 100k - some have done it obviously. WTH is their magic?

Until all facts of oil grade that were used vs oil changed - is not good enough.
One can speculate all the nonsense - of why,
leaving lines blank of critical data - nicely done - as if they don't apply.


Quote: -
Again, we are not talking about a DRIVE CHAIN, where it is subjected to dirt,
But every detail written about it is in stone - as a simple example of chain stretch - why this is such a sore spot -
I have no fkg idea. Here - again the point is missed -

Good luck. Can always go backwards in time a hundred years with pushrods.

Dont misunderstand, not arguing...just saying that 65k miles and the timing chain (and guides) are worn to the point of JUMPING?

Here are some details on the 1300, some of which I may have already mentioned -- bought bike brand new, rode everyday, 20 miles into work, 20 home.... plus several long work related road trips and then rides on the weekends when I can. Oil was changed every 3-4k miles. I used dino for breakin, then switched to synthetic oil...had the groaning clutch issue styart after the swap to synthetic, rode that way for a while then got fed up......swapped out the clutch pack, rod and bearing and changed to dino oil again, never had a problem with the clutch after.......never was sure if it was the synthetioc bike oil or a defective clutch from day one....anyways, the dino oil I used was always either Honda's oil or valvoline's bike oil in the correct weight.

The guy who bought the bike from me did say that there was a lot of "gunk" in the engine...oil type gunk.....no idea why, like I said, oil was changed religiously.

So there you have teh details. Not much different from anyone else here probably, aside from riding year round, coummuting.....rode in the 10's and 20's degrees and snow, rain, etc., traffic, etc.

maybe the oil was the problem and couldnt hold up to that type of use, but it wasnt cheapo oil, it was a name brand bike oil......so I doubt it was that.

Certainly SOMETHING caused the chain and guide to wear out.....that is why I had asked about whether moving the crank in reverse (such as when doing a valve adjustment) coould unload the adjusters, etc. as is suggested on a major VTX help site. Not syaing I did that, but I suppose it could have happened accidentally, leading to the damage.

As far as an experienced mechanic being able to pick up on the loosening timing chain, I have no doubt that is true.....but the net/net result would STILL be one of two choices...either a) live with it til it jumps (as in my case) and then pull the engine, heads and such to replace the chain and guides or b) do it right then and there...same cost, same parts.......I waited til it jumped and there was no piston damage or anything, so apparantly these motors are just fine free-wheeling (non-interference) if the chain just JUMPS a few teeth. I know that had the chain jumped OFF altogether it could have been way worse.

The reason I even bothered thinking about all this again is that I simply want to be sure I do whatever I can do to prevent the same fate from happening to the 1800 I have now.....and from what I can gather, I am doing that. No adjustments can be made, run good oil and change often. I am running Amsoil right now and hope that helps some, at least on the "gunk" part of the story.

Hope this helps explains my position......I do appreciate your feedback and info......